Z3m vs 3.0i

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magicmitch
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i

Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by magicmitch »

I'm sure this has been discussed at length before but.......

I absolutely love my 3.0i Sport to death and decided within 1 hour of ownership that this was a keeper, I shall hang on to this until I slump dead across the M steering wheel (couple of years maybe!!), but from time to time I wonder if what I really want is a Z3M, surely the ultimate Z3?? So I stumbled across this web site which is really fascinating (if you're a ZedHead!) http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match116-119.htm

I guess the moral of the story is, you always want more, but do the "relatively" meagre performance benefits outway the higher cost of ownership (and the tiny fuel tank!)? For me its a definite NO, and this web site sort of confirmed that, just thought I'd share it with you....
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pingu
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by pingu »

I keep getting itches and my latest itch is a Cayman S. I have decided against it now that I have "tested" the M against one. The other driver had been hastling me, so I let them pass and gave them the lead onto the new section of the A46 at Newark. They pulled over at good speed, hoping that the wind resistance would slow me down, but I still had 1500 revs left (and I used them :wink: ). Left them for dust. I had a Z3 2.8 and have a 330, the M is on a different scale when you give it the full beans. 5.4secs compared to 6.2secs is very noticeable :D .

The only problem I have with the M is that 5th gear ratio is very close to 4th and is too low. It could do with either a longer 5th, or better still a 6th gear. I think they designed it so that 5th tops out at 7000rpm/155mph. This means that it is 3000rpm/70mph. It would be better if it were 2000 or 2500.
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Southernboy
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Southernboy »

Have a look at the diff ratio...a small change back there may achieve what you're looking for :wink:
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Brian H
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Brian H »

magicmitch wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed at length before but.......

I absolutely love my 3.0i Sport to death and decided within 1 hour of ownership that this was a keeper, I shall hang on to this until I slump dead across the M steering wheel (couple of years maybe!!), but from time to time I wonder if what I really want is a Z3M, surely the ultimate Z3?? So I stumbled across this web site which is really fascinating (if you're a ZedHead!) http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match116-119.htm

I guess the moral of the story is, you always want more, but do the "relatively" meagre performance benefits outway the higher cost of ownership (and the tiny fuel tank!)? For me its a definite NO, and this web site sort of confirmed that, just thought I'd share it with you....
I have exactly the same itch from time to time but my 3.0i does everything I need without too much fuss or cost. The extra horses would be nice on occasion but i think you hit the nail on the head with your comment: -

"I guess the moral of the story is, you always want more"

There are some ///M owners on the site that use their cars potential and enjoy the power of these superb cars but I would hazard a guess that many more do not.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Jonttt »

magicmitch wrote: the "relatively" meagre performance benefits ...
8-) have you ever driven an ///M car V the none ///M high performance version of any model ? An ///M engine is a special beast, much more than pure stats can show. I have driven mine today and that constant surge of genuine power is freightening at times. You simply don't get that thrill from a none M engine in any BMW.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by swamper »

how many people have driven the ///M and then decided that they would prefer the 30i?
the badness makes me do it...!

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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

Jonttt wrote:
magicmitch wrote: the "relatively" meagre performance benefits ...
8-) have you ever driven an ///M car V the none ///M high performance version of any model ? An ///M engine is a special beast, much more than pure stats can show. I have driven mine today and that constant surge of genuine power is freightening at times. You simply don't get that thrill from a none M engine in any BMW.
i agree jon :)
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Badman gee
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

swamper wrote:how many people have driven the ///M and then decided that they would prefer the 30i?
none, and the m will be the real classic in time!

:twisted:
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Badman gee
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

magicmitch wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed at length before but.......

I absolutely love my 3.0i Sport to death and decided within 1 hour of ownership that this was a keeper, I shall hang on to this until I slump dead across the M steering wheel (couple of years maybe!!), but from time to time I wonder if what I really want is a Z3M, surely the ultimate Z3?? So I stumbled across this web site which is really fascinating (if you're a ZedHead!) http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match116-119.htm

I guess the moral of the story is, you always want more, but do the "relatively" meagre performance benefits outway the higher cost of ownership (and the tiny fuel tank!)? For me its a definite NO, and this web site sort of confirmed that, just thought I'd share it with you....
the m is far superior, in looks and power.

ive had 2 of them.

would not settle for any other model!

:twisted:
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TitanTim
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by TitanTim »

I drove the M and bought the 1.9 :twisted:

Tim.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

TitanTim wrote:I drove the M and bought the 1.9 :twisted:

Tim.
thats all you can handle tim :twisted: :roll:
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Z3cade »

You blowing your trumpet again.. :roll:
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

Z3cade wrote:You blowing your trumpet again.. :roll:
yep, its usually you though.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by TitanTim »

Badman gee wrote:
TitanTim wrote:I drove the M and bought the 1.9 :twisted:

Tim.
thats all you can handle tim :twisted: :roll:
It was that big HEAVY lump of a weight dragging down that poor front end, so I went for the nimble flyweight :D

Tim.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

TitanTim wrote:
Badman gee wrote:
TitanTim wrote:I drove the M and bought the 1.9 :twisted:

Tim.
thats all you can handle tim :twisted: :roll:
It was that big HEAVY lump of a weight dragging down that poor front end, so I went for the nimble flyweight :D

Tim.
yep :head:
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by swamper »

the 1.9 a great car but that was not the question i asked?
the badness makes me do it...!

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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by miller1098 »

were lucky we have the 2.8 and the M on the drive,the 2.8 is great the same way the 3.0 is.even writing this makes me want to go out to the m and go for a rip.She's sitting out there saying "come out here boy and turn my key, I know what you want and you know i'm gonna give it you".thats what an M is! i,ll see you guys in about an hour :drive :bow
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Badman gee
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

swamper wrote:the 1.9 a great car but that was not the question i asked?
your 1.9 was great wayne (when it was pushed by an m) :D
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Z3cade »

Having had a 2.8 and now M I can say there very different drives.. Power delivery is totally different.

There's just something about the M that gives you a massive grin :D
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by swamper »

Badman gee wrote:
swamper wrote:the 1.9 a great car but that was not the question i asked?
your 1.9 was great wayne (when it was pushed by an m) :D
it went quicker and further than yours ever did Mr Gee :D
the badness makes me do it...!

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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

swamper wrote:
Badman gee wrote:
swamper wrote:the 1.9 a great car but that was not the question i asked?
your 1.9 was great wayne (when it was pushed by an m) :D
it went quicker and further than yours ever did Mr Gee :D
dream on boy :lol:
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pingu
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by pingu »

If I wanted a car to drive every day, I'd want a 3.0. If I wanted a car car to drive to the south of France, I'd want a 3.0. If I wanted a car to drive the Route Napoleon when I got there, I'd want a 3.2 :D .

3.0s are great cars for the first 75% of the rev range and OK for the next 25%, Ms are OK cars for the first 75% and great for the next 25%. It depends on how you want to drive them as to how good they are.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by chrisp_1 »

Z3cade wrote:
There's just something about the M that gives you a massive grin :D
I share your sentiments mate,...

Well I did before I went arse first into a wall. Still want another though as guys said above - genuine classic car potential and killer looks from the rear.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

chrisp_1 wrote:
Z3cade wrote:
There's just something about the M that gives you a massive grin :D
I share your sentiments mate,...

Well I did before I went arse first into a wall. Still want another though as guys said above - genuine classic car potential and killer looks from the rear.
Get one soon, there arnt many good ones left for sale.

Prices will go up in a few years!
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by magicmitch »

good to read all you comments, this is a great forum! I guess it all comes down to compromise in the end. As my Zed is purely a "3 litre staight 6 mid life crisis" which gets taken on weekend jollies round Wales and off to the pub on Sundays, it really ticks most of the the boxes for me, insurance this year will be sub £200 (cos I'm an old git), 30mpg, 0-60 just under 6 secs, buckets of torque, hips wider than J'Lo's and an engine note that is directly connected to your grin muscles, this gets me 99% of what I want from what is, when all said and done an indulgence!.....but an M would be nice........!!! :lol:
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Mad Max
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Mad Max »

Ah the old internet arguments...

I've owned a 1.9 roadster, a 3.0 Sport roadster and now an M Coupe.

The 1.9 had the best steering response by far, but was limited by its power (as the Z3 isn't the lightest beast) and you get jealous every time you see one with a bigger engine/rear arches. It's still a great blast down a B road, but in the same was as an MX-5 is where you don't really have enough power to get into any trouble.

The 3.0 is an amazing all round car, it doesn't come with the M-tax and with the remap I had still delivered 35mpg which is almost as good as the 1.9. It's awesome, but haven't bought it to be an out and out, no compromise performance car, it's a lovely, fast roadster but you've got to be aware that there is a bigger beast out there, with bigger teeth.

M cars do feel completely different. M cars do put that massive grin on your face when the engine is all warmed up and you can nail the throttle to the carpet until she sings a sweet, sweet song at 7k+rpm. If you buy any M what you are getting is the best one in the range, simple. It'll outbrake the 3.0, out accelerate the 3.0, out turn the 3.0, has better interior trim... the only thing that is better about the 3.0 is the price of purchase and maintenance. The M is also a more aggressive beast to drive, the S50 has no traction control at all (the 3.0 has a brilliant DSC and ASC+T system which brakes individual wheels, the 1.9 has the worst ASC system that just cuts power - awful!!!), so if you're not awake or not used to driving something like it - it can bite you... but then an M car is a drivers car.

It's worth noting in this that the 1.9 has the quickest steering rack which helps it's steering feel the best (combined with the light weight of the M44, the 3.0 has the same steering rack as the rest of the range which feels OK, and the M has the slackest steering rack out of the whole bunch, I guess to help hopeless drivers not to put big steering inputs in that'd unsettle the car, but it's still annoying and something I may well change. They did this on the e36 too so my M3 has a standard e36 rack on it! Also the 3.0 has a very difference exhaust tone - it pops and burbles whereas the M has a rasp.

Now I know I've got a coupe and not a roadster - so as I haven't driven one I can't say how the chassis of the roadster copes with the power of the M engine... I'll be honest, when I had the 3.0 Sport at it's limit I did wonder if the chassis could cope with a much heavier engine/another 70-odd bhp, and I don't believe the M Roadster has any further chassis bracing over the rest of the range. I heard somewhere once that the Z3 3.0 Sport was only a few seconds slower around the 'ring than the Z3M Roadster...

That's just my opinions on the subject.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

Good review sir ^^^
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PCSAM
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by PCSAM »

I loved my 1.9, I love my 3.0i , I would love a M . :D
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Alfie
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Alfie »

I did the 3.0i to ///MR conversion back in 2006.

The reviews above tell the story very well.
The 3.0i is a FAB car, no doubt about it, but in the end it's all down to the amount of cash you can spare.
The ///MR is a simply phenomenal piece of kit at today's prices, and is the ultimate Z3, so if you truly crave the Top Dog, you know exactly what you have to do.... :twisted:

A.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

Alfie wrote:I did the 3.0i to ///MR conversion back in 2006.

The reviews above tell the story very well.
The 3.0i is a FAB car, no doubt about it, but in the end it's all down to the amount of cash you can spare.
The ///MR is a simply phenomenal piece of kit at today's prices, and is the ultimate Z3, so if you truly crave the Top Dog, you know exactly what you have to do.... :twisted:

A.
Good stuff sir
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Z3cade »

Am I right in thinking there's two different bhp 3.0s? Or did it go up when it changed to the Z4?
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by snoops »

Z3cade wrote:Am I right in thinking there's two different bhp 3.0s? Or did it go up when it changed to the Z4?
According to This Site ...no but I never knew there were different bhp's for the ///M's
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Mad Max
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Mad Max »

The Z4 got the 3.0i and the 3.0Si, the Si having somewhere around 265bhp if my memory serves.

The Z3Ms are rated around 315/321bhp depending on where you look (the handbook says 321bhp) for the S50B32/e36 M3 Evo engine and 325bhp for the S54B32/e46 M3 engine.
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Del »

The difference between the US and European Z3m is also interesting, I came across this extract on a US-based site some while ago:-

"The difference between the Euro and US versions is EVERYTHING! There are NO similarities in the engines. The Euro engine is 3201cc, the US engine is 3152cc. The US engine is a bored and stroked 2.8L, while the Euro engine has a different block. The Euro engine still has many parts manufactured by hand, it also has double VANOS (the US engine has single VANOS of the intake only). Another major difference is that the Euro engine has individual throttles for each cylinder (vs one for the US model).
Why the difference? Back in '93, BMW wasn't even going to import the M3 because the cost to certify the engine and chassis was more than BMW could have made up in sales of the M3 (from what I hear the cost to certify an engine in the US is at least $1,000,000 plus ALL engine and transmissions must be certified, so the M3 has had to be certified 5 times (2dr- 3.0L manual and auto, 3.2L manual, 4dr- 3.2L manual and auto). the BMW CCA complained enough to BMW and so they decided to import the M3. To make it financially possible BMW decided to bore and stroke the 2.8L engine and not include the double VANOS system (and saving nearly $15K!!!!). Would you pay $50K+ (in 95, $55K+ now) for an M3??? BMW didn't think so.

Differences? (Having never driven a Euro spec M3, these comments are made on the data) not much!

Euro engine is 321hp, 258 ft-lbs torque
US engine is 240hp, 236 ft-lbs of torque

If you remember physics class, hp is responsible for top speed, torque is responsible for acceleration. 0-60 times between the Euro and US spec M3s are nearly identical (thanks somewhat to the gearing of the differential on the US spec car). The cars are neck and neck up to about 90 or 100 when the Euro spec car leaves the US Spec in the dust. I will paraphrase something I heard recently (not sure where) that said both models will snap your neck taking off from a standstill, at 100 the US car still has good acceleration while the Euro spec car will still snap your neck!"
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by magicmitch »

Alfie wrote:I did the 3.0i to ///MR conversion back in 2006.

The reviews above tell the story very well.
The 3.0i is a FAB car, no doubt about it, but in the end it's all down to the amount of cash you can spare.
The ///MR is a simply phenomenal piece of kit at today's prices, and is the ultimate Z3, so if you truly crave the Top Dog, you know exactly what you have to do.... :twisted:

A.

you are right about the cash, mine wouldn't stretch to an M, the missus insists on having stuff like food and clothes, she just doesn't understand!!! On a serious note I've had my 3.0 Sport for 3 years now, been all over the UK on driving holidays and only had to spend out on 1 service and a coolant change in that time. No breakdowns or problems at all....Still got 4 green lights on ! Will probably have an oil change this year though, just to spoil her!!
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Jonttt »

magicmitch wrote:good to read all you comments, this is a great forum! I guess it all comes down to compromise in the end. As my Zed is purely a "3 litre staight 6 mid life crisis" which gets taken on weekend jollies round Wales and off to the pub on Sundays, it really ticks most of the the boxes for me, insurance this year will be sub £200 (cos I'm an old git), 30mpg, 0-60 just under 6 secs, buckets of torque, hips wider than J'Lo's and an engine note that is directly connected to your grin muscles, this gets me 99% of what I want from what is, when all said and done an indulgence!.....but an M would be nice........!!! :lol:
I think you have the perfect car for you, enjoy it. I can guarantee your mrs would not enjoy the ///M driven to realise the benefits of changing. Mine won't even get in it anymore (of course you could deem that as an advantage :D )
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Jonttt
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Jonttt »

Del wrote:The difference between the US and European Z3m is also interesting, I came across this extract on a US-based site some while ago:-

"The difference between the Euro and US versions is EVERYTHING! There are NO similarities in the engines. The Euro engine is 3201cc, the US engine is 3152cc. The US engine is a bored and stroked 2.8L, while the Euro engine has a different block. The Euro engine still has many parts manufactured by hand, it also has double VANOS (the US engine has single VANOS of the intake only). Another major difference is that the Euro engine has individual throttles for each cylinder (vs one for the US model).
Why the difference? Back in '93, BMW wasn't even going to import the M3 because the cost to certify the engine and chassis was more than BMW could have made up in sales of the M3 (from what I hear the cost to certify an engine in the US is at least $1,000,000 plus ALL engine and transmissions must be certified, so the M3 has had to be certified 5 times (2dr- 3.0L manual and auto, 3.2L manual, 4dr- 3.2L manual and auto). the BMW CCA complained enough to BMW and so they decided to import the M3. To make it financially possible BMW decided to bore and stroke the 2.8L engine and not include the double VANOS system (and saving nearly $15K!!!!). Would you pay $50K+ (in 95, $55K+ now) for an M3??? BMW didn't think so.

Differences? (Having never driven a Euro spec M3, these comments are made on the data) not much!

Euro engine is 321hp, 258 ft-lbs torque
US engine is 240hp, 236 ft-lbs of torque

If you remember physics class, hp is responsible for top speed, torque is responsible for acceleration. 0-60 times between the Euro and US spec M3s are nearly identical (thanks somewhat to the gearing of the differential on the US spec car). The cars are neck and neck up to about 90 or 100 when the Euro spec car leaves the US Spec in the dust. I will paraphrase something I heard recently (not sure where) that said both models will snap your neck taking off from a standstill, at 100 the US car still has good acceleration while the Euro spec car will still snap your neck!"
The USA cars also got inferior brakes to the ROW spec ;-)

I love winding up the americans on Bimmerforums and it says it all that so much credit is given if someone fits an S50 in place of an S52 engine in their car. At the end of the day the S52 was not a true ///M engine.

It is not uncommon for USA spec cars to be inferior to ROW. It can be as simple as ride height, braking systems, and engine power. Blame their litigation culture but its their loss :D
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Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Jonttt »

Mad Max wrote:The Z4 got the 3.0i and the 3.0Si, the Si having somewhere around 265bhp if my memory serves.

The Z3Ms are rated around 315/321bhp depending on where you look (the handbook says 321bhp) for the S50B32/e36 M3 Evo engine and 325bhp for the S54B32/e46 M3 engine.
The theory will tell you that there is only about 4BHP difference between an S50 and S54 Z3m. In the real world it is more like 20BHP as the S50's really run closer to 300BHP and the S54's much closer to their claimed 325BHP.

Plus if you raise the redline on the S54 to 8k ............ :twisted:
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c_w
Joined: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 16:50
Posts: 4032

  M roadster S50

Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by c_w »

The steering on the M is slower than the non-Ms which is the same I'm sure 1.9 to 3.0. Fitting a non-M rack makes to the Z3M makes it much livier.

I can understand the 3.0 vs M argument as the 3.0 is a very quick car but with the M you know it's the top model with the other bits too! Gear ratios are all the same on the 2.8/3.0/3.2 and geared for almost 165 at 7000rpm.
Z3cade
Joined: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 18:18
Posts: 2634

  M roadster S50
Location: Peterborough

Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Z3cade »

Jonttt wrote:
Mad Max wrote:The Z4 got the 3.0i and the 3.0Si, the Si having somewhere around 265bhp if my memory serves.

The Z3Ms are rated around 315/321bhp depending on where you look (the handbook says 321bhp) for the S50B32/e36 M3 Evo engine and 325bhp for the S54B32/e46 M3 engine.
The theory will tell you that there is only about 4BHP difference between an S50 and S54 Z3m. In the real world it is more like 20BHP as the S50's really run closer to 300BHP and the S54's much closer to their claimed 325BHP.

Plus if you raise the redline on the S54 to 8k ............ :twisted:
Or if your running a stage 3 evolve setup :twisted:
///M Roadster - Evolve Stage 3
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Badman gee
Joined: Sun 14 Nov, 2010 10:45
Posts: 2299

  M roadster S50

Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by Badman gee »

It's so good the m I'm off out to give it a run down the country lanes :twisted:
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The 'BEAST' 666
tribbster
Joined: Fri 29 Apr, 2011 05:39
Posts: 31

  M roadster S50

Re: Z3m vs 3.0i

Post by tribbster »

Had a 2.8 now got an M . . . . accept no substitute
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