Anyone get a letter from the BMWCARCLUB ?

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Anyone get a letter from the BMWCARCLUB ?

Post by Guest » Sat 29 Jul, 2006 19:44

Any other member of the BMW Car Club GB get a letter about the forum debacle ?

Seems pretty sad to me that what started out as difference of opinion turned first to handbags at 10 paces and then so nasty the forum has just been killed.

If the interested party's read this, please work out a compromise. The path you are currently following is of no benefit to the users or club members.

Just for the record, I am one of those people that did join the club after finding the forum. Without the forum you would not have had my membership.

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nero
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Post by nero » Sat 29 Jul, 2006 20:42

Yes, I got my copy of the letter this morning and am not happy with the content of it. As with anything of this nature, there are two sides to the story and you don't have to be a genius to work out that the Forum Admin and Moderators (of which I am one) tell a different story.

It says that Forum Admin (FA) was invited to discuss - yeh right :roflmao:
As for differences, FA made numerous suggestions as a way forward, but these were rejected.
As no compromise could be found we have the situation you see now.

At the time of writing this the BMWCCGB Forum is not up and running, but the BMW-Board (what was the old forum, but unbranded) is.

It is sad that it has come to this, as the forum has a great community spirit and was earning the club money for no outlay.

Without prejudice

Neil
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Phil
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Post by Phil » Sat 29 Jul, 2006 21:38

Got my copy
Doesnt tell the full story I guess
Sapphire black/Imola red and black interior/ red roof/ S54 - the only RHD one made.

"The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire."

garyw
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Post by garyw » Sun 30 Jul, 2006 00:15

I'm assuming a fall out has actually closed the forum down ??? as in completely ?? :shock:

I don't get the magazine... :oops:


garyw

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nero
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Post by nero » Sun 30 Jul, 2006 01:18

garyw - The BMWCCGBForum as was, was edited to remove references to BMWCC and BMW Trade Marks e.g. The Roundel. The updated full forum has been moved to BMW-Board and is now independant of the BMWCC.

BMWCC are creating a new forum, where you have to be a member of the club to post on it. Non-members will only be able to view the forum.

The problem has occured due to possible legalities of Insurance cover for Club events and how events are announced on the forum.
Attempts were made to agree a way forward, but nothing came of them.

Hope this clarifys the situation a bit more

Without prejudice

Neil
BMWCCScotland

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TonyCal
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Post by TonyCal » Sun 30 Jul, 2006 06:14

I had a copy of this too.
For some of the members this was the only method of contact with other members of the club, The other regions and registers are not as well orgainised as The Scottish, The South East and the Zregister.
To be honest any event I organised used to be posted on that forum as well as here and on z4um, but due to the lack of interest shown in them from the car club forum, I stopped adding them there.

The last line of the letter, gave me cause for concern however.
"Security access will be by using your surname, membership number and a password that you choose. Please call the club office to tell them your password or e-mail it to them"
If the forum access is restricted to members only then log in and user name will be surname and membership number, this I dont really want spread all over a freely viewable web page, also a password is supposed to be secret, telling the club office would give any number of people access to your password and member account on the forum.
This is not acceptable to me and i suspect quite a few other people, so I will not be bothering to call the club office to set my account up for the new forum.

Phil
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Post by Phil » Sun 30 Jul, 2006 07:55

Interesting Tony. I post my events on lots of car forums but most interest comes from this one. Recently there has been more Car Club interest but I dont know whether from the magazine or the forum.
I take your point about the security aspect though - not sure whether I'll register or not.
Interesting part of the letter about benefits of membership ie monthly mag, etc etc..When viewed carefully I dont want those benefits. I've never had discount on parts or service but my dealer will offer something to me if pressed but nothing to do with membership. If I'm not mistaken the events at Gaydon etc are open to the public anyway you just have to pay more to get in if a non member (correct me if I'm wrong).
The only events I attend are those I arrange !!!!!!!!!
So I get the magazine ----------------------
Sapphire black/Imola red and black interior/ red roof/ S54 - the only RHD one made.

"The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire."

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nero
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Post by nero » Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:38

Nice to hear comments from fellow "mature" members, who have had dealings with the club.

Re-passwords - I'm glad you picked up on that as well. With everything password protected people become complacent and use the same password over and over again. Handing your password out to HQ either by phone or email severly compromises the security of their forum and possibly other forums, if the passwords were to get into the wrong hands.

Passwords, like PIN numbers, are personal - there is no need for anyone else to know them. If you forget a password, site admin can set a temporary password, to get you back in, then you change it back immediately to a personal choice.

The only time I've had requests for my password for anything, is when you get Phishing emails alledgedly from Banks, Ebay, PayPal etc.

Without prejudice

Neil
BMWCCScotland

Nothing is as frustrating as arguing with someone who knows what he's talking about.

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TonyCal
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Post by TonyCal » Sun 30 Jul, 2006 15:02

Agreed Phil most interest in our events do come from here or from z4um, most are registered on both forums. To date I have had no interest in events from the car club forum itself. I too suspect that anything from the club does come from the magazine.
I have attended a couple of events organised on the club forum and to be honest its been a waste of time, with only a couple of peeps turning up.
The password issue could run and run I suspect, I agree with Nero that it should only be known to you and noone else. When the forum is set up it should use a tempory password then the members should reset it themselves asap, not notify any Tom, Dick or Jeff of it in advance. I would still object to my surname and member number being on view to all and sundry, unless that is just a logon and you can still choose your own username.
In short I dont think I will bother to register on the new forum when it gets off the ground.

Could this thread be moved to the car club members only area, as I feel it only really concerns the members. ( sorry Gary)

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Loyalties

Post by Guest » Fri 04 Aug, 2006 11:27

Whether you liked the old BMWCC Forum or not, I feel that the main problem was one of deciding if the Club needed to run a free public web forum.

The original intention was that it would provide communication on BMW-related matters to BMWCC members, and also encourage forum users to join the BMWCC, but those who have done so are apparently in the minority. Some odd people have used it to post neo-nazi propaganda, while others have used it a vehicle to organise unofficial events.

In the absence of a clear idea on what was required, the Forum was permitted to go its own way, under the control of a webmaster and moderators who clearly wanted such a situation. Any suggestions to the contrary were rebutted, and until recently the National Committee never appeared to have either a clear idea of what they wanted in a forum, or the will to impose it.

It remains a pity that the dedicated club officials in charge of the forum seem to have more dedication to non-members.

I read all the messages on the BMW-Board site which purport to tell 'The other story' but remained unconvinced that there was such a story to be told. It seems more like a refusal to agree with the executive body of the BMWCC, who after realising they had left such attempts at control too late, permitted Killian B to take full control. Perhaps he always did.

The forum was set up to benefit the BMWCC and its members, neither of which will be inconvenienced by a 'Members Only' forum.

My view is that - as happens frequently on club forums - those running the forum became more concerned on behalf of forum users who had no intention whatever of joining the BMWCC, but who still wanted the convenience of the forum to communicate with their friends in cyberspace.

I am also a member of the BMW Club, which has recently restricted some areas of its forum to Members only. This action provoked impassioned debate by both members and non-members, with one member going so far as to set up an opposition forum.

Although this website has run happily in conjunction with that of the BMWCC, it is interesting to see that the new forum includes a Z Technical page - I wonder what the future will hold?

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Re: Loyalties

Post by nero » Fri 04 Aug, 2006 17:19

Mike Fishwick - obviously you are ensconced in the BMWCC camp and that is your prerogative. As I said previously, there are two accounts of events - it's your choice, which you believe.

However, in your reply, I take objection to your comment, which I believe to be untrue ...
Mike Fishwick wrote: Some odd people have used it to post neo-Nazi propaganda.
You may disagree with some of the posts, but they are certainly not neo-Nazi. If you thought that, why didn’t you report the post or contact a moderator.

I also disagree with you about the open forum – so what if it only brings in a small percentage of new members, its still bringing in more members and helping the club to grow. In the Scottish Region, where I am a member, we get a lot of people from the forum. We make an effort to speak to them, we show them that we’re not a bunch of stuffed shirts and show how they can benefit from the club – we’re always getting new members.

Also it should be noted that the club get a lot back financially, through the adverts on the home page, the Google links and the increased membership. I wonder how much the BMWCC would have to spend on advertising/other methods to get a similar number of new members?

There were big promises made about the new forum, which at the moment hasn’t materialized. Why didn’t the club consider this forum as an example – we have a forum that everyone can see and post to, subject to registration and the restricted members area, which as far as I know is the large part of the criteria set out.

Finally, what has happen, has happened – time to move on

Without prejudice…
BMWCCScotland

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No Offence

Post by Guest » Sat 05 Aug, 2006 09:47

I don't know why Nero is so upset about the 'Neo Nazi' comment - I heard from a relaiable source that it happened, in much the same way as occurred on the BMW Club site once. I was not accusing him or anyone else.

As for being 'Ensconced in the BMWCC etc' - well, I am a member, although I disagree with many aspects of the way in which the Club is organised. I make my protests about it in an open manner, such as my letter in the current magazine regarding Concours Judging.

In this case, I read the letter from the National Committee, and also read all the messages on BMW-Board referring to the split. My opinion - for whatever it is worth - was that both told the same story from differing points of view.

The National Committee decided to act years after such a move should have been made, Killian took umbrage, and in the end the BMWCC realised that it would be easier to let Killian and his Forum go their own way. Perhaps they did not have legal title to the Forum.

If the BMWCC did indeed own the forum, then Killian and his non-members have nothing to complain about, as in that case the old forum could have been closed down.

Killian had put a lot of work into it, but that work was supposed to have been on behalf of the Club, and like it or not, I believe he should have obeyed the requirements of the National Committee, and made his objections at the AGM. With only about two dozen people bothering to attend an AGM, he could have won his motion by just bringing a few friends from the Forum.

That is called democracy, and is what one expects from an official, rather than a unilateral declaration of opposition to the National Comittee.

I do not see anything odd about a 'closed to Club' forum - a lot of club forums are - just look around. This is a public forum, which is a different thing altogether.

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Post by Zmeagol » Mon 07 Aug, 2006 19:25

It appears that zroadster.net is one of the key recruiting routes for the BMW Car Club. Last year it was runner up in terms of generating new members for the Club, the year before it was the outright winner.

Despite our attempts to encourage new members and bring revenue to the Club, I can't help feeling the national committee is totally out of touch, sitting in an ivory tower. There hasn't once been (at least to my knowledge) any attempt to bring together the various leaders of the regional groups and the registers in order to confer face-to-face on the way the Club operates. All we seem to get is a series of emails handing down decisions defining the way we are supposed to operate.

The document on register organisation is one I particularly objected to.

So whilst I'm not close to what's happened with the Forum (of which I am still a member), I suspect my sympathies lie with the webmaster, not the Club.
Mike Fishwick wrote:Although this website has run happily in conjunction with that of the BMWCC, it is interesting to see that the new forum includes a Z Technical page - I wonder what the future will hold?
I don't know why you seem surprised at that, Mike, after all it was done at your suggestion...
Dear Jeff

I have just received your letter concerning the change of policy for the BMWCC Forum, and the associated problems.

I would just like to say that I thoroughly applaud this action by the National Committee, and only wish that such a policy had been invoked from the advent of the Forum.

(sections of email removed)

Oh - a suggestion for the new forum - it would be a good idea to have a line in the list of specialist 'Type' forums for the Z models, operating a link to Z roadster.net. Although this site is mentioned with a link in the list of registers, it is not where prospective members would expect it to be, and so could make them think that the BMWCC is not interested in Zeds. Of course, contributors to this site do not have to be BMWCC members, which is maybe another problem!

Best wishes, Mike Fishwick
Tim

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Z Reg

Post by Guest » Wed 09 Aug, 2006 15:34

No Tim - Please read my comments again - I suggested that the new BMWCC forum had a link to this website, as it would seem a trifle foolish to reinvent the wheel etc.

Re the lack of reference to Register reps etc - this is one of my favourite whinges about the BMWCC, which I have already raised with Jeff Heywood. I feel that the National Committee should be predominantly made up of repesentatives from the Regions and Registers. As things stand, I feel that most NC members are not there to represent groups of members - even if they happen to be a Region Chairman for example, that is coincidental, and has nothing to do with their position on the NC.

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