This is sure to get the blood boiling....
Tonight, Monday 12 November 07.
Dispatches: Bottleneck Britain
Channel 4, 8.00pm
Britain stands on the brink of gridlock, but when the Government proposed pay-as-you-drive motoring the motoring public revolted.
Reporter Jason Barlow takes to the road to find out whether road pricing is, in fact, the only answer to congestion.
Let the debate begin....
A.
Documentary about road charging.
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Tourniquet
- Joined: Sun 12 Mar, 2006 11:21
- Posts: 353
Government see problem. government tax problem. 
problem not go away. raise the tax or add another tax
problem still not go away. local elections comming up.... best ignore the problem for now.
problem still not go away. raise the tax AND add another tax.... sit back and relax at a job well done.
problem still not gone away, general election comming up and opposition promising to lower/scrap the new taxs.
rinse repeat.
heaven forbid they should consider something that would actually have an impact, like incentives for business to stagger their opening and closing times (7-3, 8-4, 9-5, 10-6 etc) instead of cramming everything into the same slot.
problem not go away. raise the tax or add another tax
problem still not go away. local elections comming up.... best ignore the problem for now.
problem still not go away. raise the tax AND add another tax.... sit back and relax at a job well done.
problem still not gone away, general election comming up and opposition promising to lower/scrap the new taxs.
rinse repeat.
heaven forbid they should consider something that would actually have an impact, like incentives for business to stagger their opening and closing times (7-3, 8-4, 9-5, 10-6 etc) instead of cramming everything into the same slot.
Convert to the church of "nice shiny engine bay"
All hail the shiny engine bay.
All hail the shiny engine bay.
Or cash incntives for work-from-home employees, such as free broadband and cash rebates on company car tax if you WFH 3 days a week. They need to remove the stigma that people who work from home are not working hard enough.Tourniquet wrote:heaven forbid they should consider something that would actually have an impact, like incentives for business to stagger their opening and closing times (7-3, 8-4, 9-5, 10-6 etc) instead of cramming everything into the same slot.
Use the Search button before posting newbie questions about hard tops and fitting kits, footwell speaker amps, water in the boot, hood maintainance and those horrific angel eyes. We get like 10 threads a week on the same subject, it's obvious that you haven't searched.
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The Colonel
- Joined: Sat 16 Jun, 2007 17:53
- Posts: 166
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- Location: London
Did I miss something in this programme?
There was a segment about some office workers in Barnet that recieved 300-odd tickets between them for driving into a bus lane to access their office car park.
They then investigated the legality of the bus lane, which, once put to them, Barnet Council rectified. The piece ended with the assertion from Barnet Council expected the people to pay the fines.
Surely the issue here wasn't the legality of the bus lane (though it is an issue), but the stupidity of fining people to access a car park?
Or did I miss that bit?
There was a segment about some office workers in Barnet that recieved 300-odd tickets between them for driving into a bus lane to access their office car park.
They then investigated the legality of the bus lane, which, once put to them, Barnet Council rectified. The piece ended with the assertion from Barnet Council expected the people to pay the fines.
Surely the issue here wasn't the legality of the bus lane (though it is an issue), but the stupidity of fining people to access a car park?
Or did I miss that bit?
I watched that too... there was ONE really important bit that wasn't emphasised highly enough.
Did you see the man jumping round and crossing an intersection in London diagonally?
Well if you did, you know what I mean - stupid traffic signal timing. I can only speak for Glasgow, but here, during rush hour, the timing of the traffic lights in the city centre is absolutely ridiculous. Green is on for around 30 seconds only. Also as soon as the traffic light you're at changes to green, the next one immediately changes to red. This, incredibly, happens for all traffic lights, all the time. We also have such clever things like completely stopping traffic on all directions for pedestrians. How stupid is that? And finally, literally all the busses cram into Hope St. and Renfield St., two of the most central roads, causing endless traffic jams all day long and making these two roads the most polluted in Europe.
If these things doesn't cause instant chaos, I don't know what does. And it goes to show what traffic planning in this city (which far from being overloaded with cars by any means) is at a very bare minimum, it is executed badly and with little sympathy to the citizens and to the environment.
Extended to a national level, it goes to show how badly planned roads are in Britain. Luckily, Glasgow is not thinking about a road pricing scheme, it just isn't that bad here yet. But sure enough, when there is no accountability for stupid decisions, it's a case of government see problem, government tax problem.
Did you see the man jumping round and crossing an intersection in London diagonally?
Well if you did, you know what I mean - stupid traffic signal timing. I can only speak for Glasgow, but here, during rush hour, the timing of the traffic lights in the city centre is absolutely ridiculous. Green is on for around 30 seconds only. Also as soon as the traffic light you're at changes to green, the next one immediately changes to red. This, incredibly, happens for all traffic lights, all the time. We also have such clever things like completely stopping traffic on all directions for pedestrians. How stupid is that? And finally, literally all the busses cram into Hope St. and Renfield St., two of the most central roads, causing endless traffic jams all day long and making these two roads the most polluted in Europe.
If these things doesn't cause instant chaos, I don't know what does. And it goes to show what traffic planning in this city (which far from being overloaded with cars by any means) is at a very bare minimum, it is executed badly and with little sympathy to the citizens and to the environment.
Extended to a national level, it goes to show how badly planned roads are in Britain. Luckily, Glasgow is not thinking about a road pricing scheme, it just isn't that bad here yet. But sure enough, when there is no accountability for stupid decisions, it's a case of government see problem, government tax problem.
wwwwOOOff!!!
The only thing that program proved was that "pay as you go" tax does nothing to relieve traffic congestion.
All but one of the drivers on the test were pleasantly surprised by the charges. I think the one that thought it expensive did the least miles. Non of them said they would do less miles if road charging was implemented. So what use is it ?
All but one of the drivers on the test were pleasantly surprised by the charges. I think the one that thought it expensive did the least miles. Non of them said they would do less miles if road charging was implemented. So what use is it ?
The point that was missing for me was no mention whatsoever of the sinister 'spy-in-the-sky' method of assessing individuals' journeys.
When I signed the petition on the No 10 website, I didn't sign against road pricing per-se, but against the scarily intrusive and grossly expensive method of GPS and it's potential to be used as social and political monitoring of individuals, ie: you and me doing 75mph on a deserted motorway at 2am = NIP on the door mat.
Although the government would 'assure' us that spyware wouldn't be used in this way, you can bet your last 3 license points that a few years later, the legislation would be changed and the technology would then be used to it's 'full' potential…..
On the phasing of lights, Ken's blatant use of traffic light manipulation to cause congestion was never more apparent than in central London in the weeks before the congestion tax was introduced. Many junctions were set to give 80% duration priority to minor side roads and non-existent pedestrians, (I know, I timed it myself), causing gridlock and frustration in an already-fractured system. Then the weekend before the tax went live, council slugs were out and about on premium rate overtime resetting all the phasing back to main road priority…..
Hey presto! Look how successful the Ctax is! And the thickos swllowed it.
I still say that the fairest and most efficient way to deter car use is to scrap road tax and add the equivalent to petrol. Then choosing NOT to use the car actually reaps immediate and obvious financial benefit to the individual. And the fuel tax system is already in place, so implementation would cost a tiny fraction of any other method.
A.
When I signed the petition on the No 10 website, I didn't sign against road pricing per-se, but against the scarily intrusive and grossly expensive method of GPS and it's potential to be used as social and political monitoring of individuals, ie: you and me doing 75mph on a deserted motorway at 2am = NIP on the door mat.
Although the government would 'assure' us that spyware wouldn't be used in this way, you can bet your last 3 license points that a few years later, the legislation would be changed and the technology would then be used to it's 'full' potential…..
On the phasing of lights, Ken's blatant use of traffic light manipulation to cause congestion was never more apparent than in central London in the weeks before the congestion tax was introduced. Many junctions were set to give 80% duration priority to minor side roads and non-existent pedestrians, (I know, I timed it myself), causing gridlock and frustration in an already-fractured system. Then the weekend before the tax went live, council slugs were out and about on premium rate overtime resetting all the phasing back to main road priority…..
Hey presto! Look how successful the Ctax is! And the thickos swllowed it.
I still say that the fairest and most efficient way to deter car use is to scrap road tax and add the equivalent to petrol. Then choosing NOT to use the car actually reaps immediate and obvious financial benefit to the individual. And the fuel tax system is already in place, so implementation would cost a tiny fraction of any other method.
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"Pleasantly suprised" is not how I'd react to an additional £350 yearly bill for no improvements to our road.Alfie wrote:Erm, yeah. Compared to what?cnharris wrote:All but one of the drivers on the test were pleasantly surprised by the charges.
Were they assuming that they'd be paying per mile instead of road tax?
Cloud cuckoo land I think.
I didn't get that bit at all.
A.
Lets not forget, that once this fee is in place, the Goverment will be able to increase the charges as they see fit, and even worse allow local councils to manage the charges. You can gaurantee the charges will never go down and could be as much of a spiralling rip off as Council Tax within just a few years.
Use the Search button before posting newbie questions about hard tops and fitting kits, footwell speaker amps, water in the boot, hood maintainance and those horrific angel eyes. We get like 10 threads a week on the same subject, it's obvious that you haven't searched.
Congestion is going to continue to get worse regardless of any charges imposed by any government, be they direct or stealthy until the alternative methods of transport become reliable and offer value for money.
It's not rocket science you only have to look at how little impact previous attempts a taxing drivers has had. The rise in fuel taxation hasn't detered any one, a steady increse in Road Tax didn't deter anyone and now Road Tax banding hasn't reduced the number of 4x4s.
Very few drivers are going to be priced out of driving their cars, all that happens is we complain about about being screwed.
My GF and I always used to use public transport to get into London for work until we realised that:
I realise that this won't work for everyone but with more and more people moving outside London and commuting in, until the government realise that public transport is just not an option they are going to have to charge me a hell of a lot more than they do now to stop me driving to work.
It's not rocket science you only have to look at how little impact previous attempts a taxing drivers has had. The rise in fuel taxation hasn't detered any one, a steady increse in Road Tax didn't deter anyone and now Road Tax banding hasn't reduced the number of 4x4s.
Very few drivers are going to be priced out of driving their cars, all that happens is we complain about about being screwed.
My GF and I always used to use public transport to get into London for work until we realised that:
- Overland Train * 2 @ 900
Tube/DLR * 2 @ 190
Station Parking @ 297
Petrol @ 25
Total = £1412.00 per month
- New Car Finance @ 125
Road Tax @ 11.67
London Parking @ 154
Petrol @ 136
Servicing @ 25
Insurance @ 37.50
Total = £489.17 per month
I realise that this won't work for everyone but with more and more people moving outside London and commuting in, until the government realise that public transport is just not an option they are going to have to charge me a hell of a lot more than they do now to stop me driving to work.
BTW, has anyone else noticed that Oil is traded in dollars but despite the huge change in the GBP to USD exchange rate in the last 18 months the Sterling price of petrol is still going up....Hmmmmm
Last edited by Dave L2 on Tue 13 Nov, 2007 12:44, edited 1 time in total.
It's not even remotely fair to tax people to go to work IMHO. It's not as if we go because we like it. A Work From Home initiative is the only real solution for drastic reduction in congestion.
Use the Search button before posting newbie questions about hard tops and fitting kits, footwell speaker amps, water in the boot, hood maintainance and those horrific angel eyes. We get like 10 threads a week on the same subject, it's obvious that you haven't searched.
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Guest
Propaganda
Most of program was subtle propaganda for introducing road pricing - they omitted to mention WHY the delay on red at those traffic lights (not uncommon in London) is so long. The answer is that Ken L's men had the red period extended across London, to generate congestion in order to provide an excuse to introduce the congestion charge!
Several other cities are now doing the same.
Look on the Daily Telegraph website motoring section, and read the bit about 'Safety' cameras and how the government fiddle the statistics to justify them - it's interesting reading.
Several other cities are now doing the same.
Look on the Daily Telegraph website motoring section, and read the bit about 'Safety' cameras and how the government fiddle the statistics to justify them - it's interesting reading.
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The Colonel
- Joined: Sat 16 Jun, 2007 17:53
- Posts: 166
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- Location: London
A few years ago the DETR were running a "consultation" on whether or not the tolls at the Dartford Crossing should be scrapped. They should have been scrapped as part of an earlier promise to do so once the cost of constructing the QEII bridge had been met.Congestion is going to continue to get worse regardless of any charges imposed by any government
The government carried out a study that declared that traffic levels through the crossing would increase by 10% by 2008 if the tolls were removed, but to prove they were listening the consultation was held, even though it was nothing more than a wheeze to justify a huge and continuous revenue stream.
From the first day of the consultation to the last I repeatedly asked the question "By what percentage are the traffic levels expected to increase by 2008 with the tolls retained?", since that information hadn't been forthcoming in their report. The answer I got, several times, was "If we remove the tolls traffic levels will increase by 10% by 2008". Can you imagine how frustrating that was. Didn't matter how I rephrased my question that was the answer I got. Even got my MP involved: he got the same answer.
It's nearly 2008. I use the crossing every Tuesday. Either direction it is a 30mile journey almost exclusively on 50/70mph roads that takes 90minutes (regardless of the time of day!). The congestion at the crossing gets worse, seemingly on a weekly basis, but the only thing that causes the congestion is the tolls themselves: nothing else. The roads are probably some of the most effective in the south-east, if not the UK, particularly heading into Kent, but are rendered useless, dangerous possibly, by the tollbooths, which of course earn huge revenue.
