Open letter to Tim (Zmeagol)

zroadstervoice · Post by **zroadstervoice** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 13:45

To: Tim (ZMeagol)
From: A large number of very disgruntled members

For fear of personal reprisals from your moderator team (Spokey, RobBruce & Giles) we have chosen to write to you in an open letter. We draw on the comments in NeRo’s resignation letter about the way your team debate things in your hidden areas.

SEVENTEEN of your long standing members have put this letter together to express our utter dismay of recent events on zroadster. Many of us have been around as long as Neil (Nero) and are saddened & angered by recent events and the way the forum is now run.

Your team of moderators (with the exception of Phil) openly criticise any other forum of which they are not actively involved with. Recently its zed-cars but in the past it
has been the Z4UM (please see link below). This particular rant was entitled ‘Z4UM lost the plot?”.

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11483

Your moderators whom started that thread have been openly criticising zed-cars for the very same reasons (albeit not the registration issue). We urge everyone to read that thread and draw their own conclusions so that people can draw comparisons to the recent rants. There are other threads to, this is but one example.

If this is allowed to continue we fully expect this to be repeated time and time again with your moderators using our zroadster as a way of boosting their self importance.

It is clear that the problem with zroadster is your moderator and admin team. Tim, you seem to make no decisions yourself and appear to obey every command that Spokey, RobBruce or Giles throw at you. Given the display of ‘airing dirty laundry & gripes in public’ from your moderators, Spokey especially with his whinging about bans every 2nd post! In times gone by its been Giles about his Z4UM ban. You have no control over them at all, these are the very people that are destroying the forum & they are running it!

You should be standing firm as the webmaster/site admin and stopping such things and allowing zroadster to go back to being a car forum.

We call for your resignation if you can’t control your current moderators, or, preferably, the resignation or dismissal of the moderators Spokey, RobBruce & Giles with a poll put to the membership of zroadster to elect new people. You have only one moderator left with any integrity* after the departure of Neil and that is not Spokey, RobBruce or Giles.

*This judgement is taken from the content and general demeanour of your moderator’s posts. The closing statement from Robbruce on the late Nero’s resignation letter thread is testimony to this

If zroadster continues along its current path then we will resign on mass and the decreasing membership rate will go into a further decline.

Tim for the sake of zroadster, show us some strength, stand up for your members, and allow the public voting in of new moderators. People who will be impartial, act with integrity and without the prejudice of everything and anything that isn’t in their control. People like Neil & Phil. If you can’t do this then you should consider your own position and resign.

We urge the zroadster membership to back this request and get zroadster back to the being the best zed forum on the internet.

If this letter is removed from the public board then we shall PM it to all zroadster members and continually post it under different member accounts until you act and get this terrible situation back under control.

Be a man Tim and show us some leadership.

Disgruntled zRoadster Members.

And_101 · Post by **And_101** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:18

I am not one of the aforementioned 17, however I would like to add my support to their views!

Jules75 · Post by **Jules75** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:42

And_101 wrote:I am not one of the aforementioned 17, however I would like to add my support to their views!

x2

All hail Zroadstervoice!

Roaders · Post by **Roaders** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:43

And_101 wrote:I am not one of the aforementioned 17, however I would like to add my support to their views!

x3

JAY · Post by **JAY** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:44

And_101 wrote:I am not one of the aforementioned 17, however I would like to add my support to their views!

X4
I wasn't asked for my opinions either.

I have been a member of this forum & the old one since 2001.

I believe some change are for the good, but I have seen/felt allot of changes in the atmosphere in this forum, and IMO they aren't changes for the good.

Quite frankly it saddens me to openly say this, but it puts me off.

I still feel passionate about this forum, and the roots of my knowledge & friends I have made in the "zed community" have stem from zroadster.

I hope things/atmosphere changes around here.......... for the better.

J.

Giles · Post by **Giles** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:45

X5

(How many of the 17 have ordered calendars?)

If you're not man (or women) enough stand up and name yourselves then I'm not prepared to seriously answer your charges.

Jules75 · Post by **Jules75** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:46

Giles wrote:X5

Does this mean you are quiting as site admin then?

Giles · Post by **Giles** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:48

See above Jules.

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:52

PMSL.

What brave people you seventeen keyboard warriors are. You say you want Tim to be a man? You utter hypocrites: how can you say something like that with a straight face when you're not even prepared to post under your own names.

Jules75 · Post by **Jules75** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:52

Well I'm publically standing up and making myself known. And there are few posters here also doing the same. So, I'd strap in, sit down, and see how many others post publically.

Roaders · Post by **Roaders** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:53

Giles wrote: If you're not man (or women) enough stand up and name yourselves then I'm not prepared to seriously answer your charges.

Just goes to show how much an administrator of this forum values the opinion of it's members.

Giles · Post by **Giles** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 14:56

I understand only too well trolling and it's implications Giles.

Perhaps the 17 would like to PM me and identify themselves?

If they are not prepared to do that then this is an ill thought through attempt to stir trouble.

Thread locked and will be reopened when the 17 have identified themselves either via PM or publicly.

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 15:05

I disagree. I think it's important that people should be able to say what they feel about this matter.

PVR · Post by **PVR** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 15:16

Ok. I must admit that I am disappointed as well. Having been a member since 2003 it seems to have been going downhill for some time.

Maybe it is indeed time for some changes? I saw the same thing happen on Z4UM as it did here: The site owner lost interest and it all went from bad to worse. Tim had been absent for a very long time a while back, and on his return - no longer has a Z. I can imagine that part of the interest in running the site is reduced when you are no longer part of the community as such, nor join any event.

PVR · Post by **PVR** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 15:27

spokey wrote:I disagree. I think it's important that people should be able to say what they feel about this matter.

So why are their accounts now blocked though?

The Colonel · Post by **The Colonel** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 15:33

zedtalk · Post by **zedtalk** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 15:47

Why do you keep deleting this?

All,

Our thread has been locked. We have openly expressed our concern about naming ourselves in public but are genuninely scared of the moderators reactions.

Spokey & Giles thank you once again for your threatening and be-littleing responses. It re-enforces exactly what we outlined in our open letter.

One of zRoadsters attractions is its recognition by the BMWCC and the official home of the zRegister. We are writing to BMW GB & the BMW CC with copies of all the content from the Forum over recent weeks and asking them why they are associated with a forum that has individuals like your moderators running it.

BMW WILL be contacted and all the correspondence & reference numbers will be posted here and on all the other BMW related forums later today.

You can shut out our collective voice down on here, but we will keep shouting elsewhere to make sure this bullying and dictatorship is ended.

Its a terrible terrible shame it has come to this and the moderators have once again shown why the letter was written in the first place. And why we are SCARED to come out in public.

No doubt the moderators will start the name calling & intimidation on their repsonses. This is to be expected but BMW & the BMW CC will be copied on every single post.

We thank the other members for their support and urge everyone else to support us and help the forum return to its once levels of respect within the BMW community.

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 15:47

PVR wrote:
spokey wrote:I disagree. I think it's important that people should be able to say what they feel about this matter.
So why are their accounts now blocked though?

Let me rephrase that: I think it's important that people should be able to say what they feel about this matter.

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 15:59

Can someone just summise, concisely, what all this is about!?

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 16:05

c_w wrote:Can someone just summise, concisely, what all this is about!?

Somebody doesn't like me, but they won't say so to my face.

The Colonel · Post by **The Colonel** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 16:07

Without knowing what it is about, for me, doesn't render it any less entertaining. Of all the spats on forums I've frequented over the last year this is by far the silliest, and I managed to cause a bit of a stir on a Bereavement Support Group forum, which was very silly very quickly.

Merry Christmas.

Jules75 · Post by **Jules75** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 16:08

spokey wrote:
c_w wrote:Can someone just summise, concisely, what all this is about!?
Somebody doesn't like me, but they won't say so to my face.

I like ya! But, I don't think any of this is personal.

And yes, my ban has been lifted. Apparently I had a personal vendetta.

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 16:09

zedtalk wrote:Why do you keep deleting this?

All,

Our thread has been locked. We have openly expressed our concern about naming ourselves in public but are genuninely scared of the moderators reactions.

Spokey & Giles thank you once again for your threatening and be-littleing responses. It re-enforces exactly what we outlined in our open letter.

One of zRoadsters attractions is its recognition by the BMWCC and the official home of the zRegister. We are writing to BMW GB & the BMW CC with copies of all the content from the Forum over recent weeks and asking them why they are associated with a forum that has individuals like your moderators running it.

BMW WILL be contacted and all the correspondence & reference numbers will be posted here and on all the other BMW related forums later today.

You can shut out our collective voice down on here, but we will keep shouting elsewhere to make sure this bullying and dictatorship is ended.

Its a terrible terrible shame it has come to this and the moderators have once again shown why the letter was written in the first place. And why we are SCARED to come out in public.

No doubt the moderators will start the name calling & intimidation on their repsonses. This is to be expected but BMW & the BMW CC will be copied on every single post.

We thank the other members for their support and urge everyone else to support us and help the forum return to its once levels of respect within the BMW community.

Your thread has been unlocked. I fail to see what possible reaction the nasty moderators could have about seeing your names that should scare you. Do you think someone is going to materialise out of your monitor or something?

Since you lack the guts to even name yourselves, it's hardly surprising that you are going to go crying to the the BMW CC and to BMW GB. I can't wait to see the response you get from them, either. And running around the internet, bravely but namelessly telling everyone about these nasty people ... well, really.

You may think I'm belittling you, but actually you are doing all by yourselves.

Jules75 · Post by **Jules75** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 16:09

c_w wrote:Can someone just summise, concisely, what all this is about!?

I think there has been unrest in the ZR camp for a while now. But this thread: http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15578

caused quite a stir and has been the straw that broke the camels back as they say.

BimBeema · Post by **BimBeema** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 16:36

Wo, wo - people, why don't u all just take a chill pill and calm down! Is christmas shopping getting a bit too much?

Now a few things to say about this, and just to point out I'm not taking any sides here at all when I'm saying what I'm saying below:

Firstly - Disgruntled members - I believe this hasn't been handled well. this letter should have been sent to Tim directly and privately, not as a thread for everyone to read! It would then have been up to Tim to deal with any issues privately - all this open letter has accomplished is to start a war of words, nobody likes criticism and especially not public criticism, so openly criticising the mods is baiting them to react and then to say "look how, they're reacting"! They're human after all! Its not right or clever! especially hiding behind anonymity - its very easy to obtain your IP your posting from and trace it via your ISP! as I said its not right nor clever and all its doing is trying to cause a reaction!

Secondly, this is a forum for heaven's sake - lets have some perspective and get a grip! Can't we all just get along? It was only 2 weeks ago many of us were enjoying each other's company at a xmas do!

Thirdly - I've just done some sums and we have a member list of 5273 - now I know not all are active, but there's no way I can tell that without checking last post dates, etc, so 5273 will have to do, now we have 17, plus another 5 who are supporting this open letter, that's 22 right? That means there's 0.4% disgruntled members - now without trying to belittle anyone or cause any offence - I think its pretty much normal and accepted that in any community, there would be a percentage of people not happy with status quo! Real answer would be if this was to be put to a vote!

Grubbins · Post by **Grubbins** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 16:45

No doubt the Barryboys forum members will advise 'hairdyers at twenty paces'. Come on guys get over it. Just a forum..... your choice.

Jules75 · Post by **Jules75** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:11

RE Tim's response

The reason that the zed-cars discussion was conducted between individual moderators and not on the moderator board was because Nero would have been in a position where he would have had to make a choice whether or not to let his friends on zed cars know what we were discussing.

Sorry, I didn't realise the back room discussions were so sensitive.

Again, I repeat, anyone that knows Nero, would know he wouldn't undertake such sneeky behaviour.

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:15

Jules75 wrote:RE Tim's response
The reason that the zed-cars discussion was conducted between individual moderators and not on the moderator board was because Nero would have been in a position where he would have had to make a choice whether or not to let his friends on zed cars know what we were discussing.
Sorry, I didn't realise the back room discussions were so sensitive. Again, I repeat, anyone that knows Nero, would know he wouldn't undertake such sneeky behaviour.

Did you actually read what he wrote?

He didn't accuse Nero of doing anything sneaky, he just said that he didn't want him to be faced with the decision.

You are putting words in Tim's mouth. Ordinarily, I wouldn't post on Tim's behalf, but I feel like I'm in the same boat: people are reading something out of my words that I did not put in them.

beemz · Post by **beemz** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:22

I fail to see what all this c@~p has to do with the general running of a forum. Personal issues such as is obviously happening here should be able to be resolved without disrupting the proffessionalism and running of this forum. The moderators' and i'm meaning all moderators here need to take a good look at what is happening publicly an this site. Their appears to be a total lack of control with posting, especially when their are personal issues. Moderators, get a grip and get it right! You collectively are sending what should be a great forum for members to enjoy, down the tube.

Grubbins · Post by **Grubbins** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:23

Just going out for a drive....leave you all to it then

stu · Post by **stu** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:33

Grubbins wrote:Just going out for a drive....leave you all to it then

x2

And_101 · Post by **And_101** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:52

BimBeema wrote:Real answer would be if this was to be put to a vote!

Funny you should say that....

I posted a Poll last night asking what people thought - but it got removed early this morning.

And_101 · Post by **And_101** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:54

spokey wrote: Somebody doesn't like me, but they won't say so to my face.

You can't accuse me of that - your former signature was proof of that!

rustyz4 · Post by **rustyz4** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:54

As entertaining as it is to read all the recent threads concerning resignations, calling for resignations and publicly slanging each other off as well as other forums, all I see is a huge clash of pesonalaties and a large amount of kids playground banter (your not in my gang anymore). This is a car forum, reading some of the recent threads anyone would think it is a breeding ground for industrial espoinage.

I have no knowledge of the past history and before you all start I dont want to know,,,,,

I think this, as a forum for Z owners is a fantastic site, full of interesting facts and a fountain of knowledge, and surely that is what it should be all about,

I am aware I am a "newbie" to this site,, but have been the member of several bike forums for years, who co exist quite happily,,, and surely so should all the Z forums.

Cant you all just kiss and make up

Giles · Post by **Giles** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 17:57

rustyz4 wrote:Cant you all just kiss and make up

You obviously haven't met Spokey

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:02

And_101 wrote:
spokey wrote: Somebody doesn't like me, but they won't say so to my face.
You can't accuse me of that - your former signature was proof of that!

I certainly am not accusing you of that. I had actually written words to that effect in my reply, but by the time I got round to pressing send, so many other people had replied that it would been silly for me to single you out as having the courage of your convictions.

I hope you haven't been "genuinely scared" of my response.

And_101 · Post by **And_101** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:02

spokey wrote: Since you lack the guts to even name yourselves, it's hardly surprising that you are going to go crying to the the BMW CC and to BMW GB.

I imagine the reason they won't name themselves is that they know they'll all get banned/barred/deleted by one of the moderators. Though to be fair to you Spokey, I don't think you would do that, as you always seem to like everyone to have their say, so you can respond to it.

My view is if I get banned/barred/deleted for having an opinion then it can only strengthen my case that my views are indeed correct. We will have to see what happens......

Grubbins · Post by **Grubbins** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:08

Still at it guys? Me and Stu are still out driving....(seperate cars before you start.....)

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:11

And_101 wrote:My view is if I get banned/barred/deleted for having an opinion then it can only strengthen my case that my views are indeed correct. We will have to see what happens......

I would hate to see someone banned for having an opinion. But that's just my opinion.

Giles · Post by **Giles** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:16

And_101 wrote:I imagine the reason they won't name themselves is that they know they'll all get banned/barred/deleted by one of the moderators.

Andrew, numerous people have openly supported the OP and have not been banned. In fact no one has been banned, (two members were temporarily suspended earlier this afternoon, but reinstated after 15mins and warned via PM but their accounts remain active and will continue to do so). Might I tactfully suggest that by perpetuating this these kind of myths you are only adding fuel to the fire.

Let's be clear here, this is trolling at it's worst and for the record, I have as yet received not ONE single PM from any of the supposed 17. Why? Because they don't exist. I have, however, received two PMs stating privately that they want to distance themselves from zroadstervoice's attention seeking babble.

The Sin Bin and Suspension Announcement Forum are your reference point.

Justin Time · Post by **Justin Time** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:18

so when is this going to end? would absolutely spiffing if you said now, so we can all go back to enjoying what this forum was intended for.

And_101 · Post by **And_101** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:19

spokey wrote: I hope you haven't been "genuinely scared" of my response.

Ermmm not at all

I believe in open and vigourous debate.

Giles · Post by **Giles** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:24

Justin Time wrote:so when is this going to end? would absolutely spiffing if you said now, so we can all go back to enjoying what this forum was intended for.

The Moderators will be damned whatever they do right now, so, in the interests of letting people have their say I'm suggesting this thread gets left open for a few hours and is then maybe laid to rest?

Incidentally, as ever, there is much other superb information and threads currently ongoing elsewhere on the board. It's a bit like Mary Whitehouse I suppose - if you don't like what you see, switch off or change channel!

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:25

And_101 wrote:
spokey wrote: I hope you haven't been "genuinely scared" of my response.
Ermmm not at all

So you think this might have been a load of hooey, then?

zedtalk wrote:We have openly expressed our concern about naming ourselves in public but are genuninely scared of the moderators reactions.

Tourniquet · Post by **Tourniquet** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:35

Ahhh the good old voice of the anonymous minor majority

consequences be damned, you want to be taken seriously you post with an account that isn't in single digits.

not taking either side in this handbag slinging match.

PaulW · Post by **PaulW** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:39

Justin Time wrote:so when is this going to end? would absolutely spiffing if you said now, so we can all go back to enjoying what this forum was intended for.

X2

Deano1712 · Post by **Deano1712** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 18:45

I find it hard to believe that there are 17 long standing members who are critical enough to support this open letter, yet are not prepared to identify themselves. More likely in my view this is one individual making mischief. Quite successfully it seems. Leave it open for the evening and then delete the whole Topic I say.

big cheesy · Post by **big cheesy** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 19:22

I am not one of the 17 / 22 or how ever many dissaffected people at the moment, real or otherwise ! All I can think is how very sad it's getting to this with no resolution in site at the moment. I certainly do not want to see the forum imploding. I have followed most of the posts but sorry if I am being thick, I cannot see what all the bad feeling is about. I have no axe to grind with anyone on here I just enjoy the forum, driving my car and shoving up the odd post, and reading everyone else's. Hopefully it can get resolved amicably without destroying the site. live and let live.

ps please do not slap a ban me

estocks · Post by **estocks** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 19:23

A mutiny of The Camden Leisure Pirates!

spokey · Post by **spokey** » Fri 14 Dec, 2007 19:24

estocks wrote:A mutiny of The Camden Leisure Pirates!

Arrrrrrrrr!!!

Open letter to Tim (Zmeagol)

Open letter to Tim (Zmeagol)

Addendum to the Open Letter