Caught speeding, although I believe I wasn't!

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Mon 04 Dec, 2006 18:13

Annoying.
Last week, I had to drive to Brighouse for work, took the poolcar which is a Rover 25 and headed over the M62 from Manchester. On the way I notice that traffic was BAD in the other direction, so when I headed back, I used the A62 all the way from Brighouse to Oldham etc. avoided all motorways.

Anyway, on the A62 heading out of Huddersfield, unsure of the speed limit (no signs) I kept my speed down, no cars to follow or to follow me, and in the other direction a lorry flashes at me. So I check speed and 30mph. I spot the VW Sharon type people carrier containing the mobile police camera just in sight, and continue merrily on my way.

Today, letter at work, 36mph in a 30mph zone.

considering that speedo's are usually 10% out, I know I was certainly not near 40, certainly not speeding either.

Work have got to declare it was me they have accused of speeding, already checked photo evidence etc. So now I await a letter to home.

I fully intend to contest this. I value my license to much, certainly enough not to waste it in a poxy Rover doing a task for work.... ffs, also - I didn't want to get back to work quick!!!

I am doing my research, and read a lot already, trying to avoiding having to pay for a solicitor to help. Any advise appreciated please guys.

Thanks
Chris

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Mon 04 Dec, 2006 20:28

Have a look at this
http://www.pepipoo.com./

Post by **Robert T** » Mon 04 Dec, 2006 21:17

Hi Chris. You're sure that it was the mobile camera that got you? I find it hard to believe that if you checked your speed at 30 that you would be doing 36 past the van - especially as you were expecting it. If the speedo were that inaccurate you would probably have noticed if you were following any traffic, as you would be thinking "why's this numpty going so slow". You could do with finding out what kind of camera/gun got you - if it was a laser gun, those things have quite a range and you may not have seen the van, but it will have seen you. I really hate these things as you seem to be guilty until proven innocent - and proving your innocence can be quite difficult - as you can see two-thirds the way down this page. Good luck. Cheers R.

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Mon 04 Dec, 2006 21:28

Thanks for the link Robert, will read that.

Yep, I am sure that it was this particular mobile unit that got me, since on the photo evidence I can be seen scratching my chin. I remember when the lorry flashed, I scratched my chin (goaty beard at the moment)thinking 'Im doing 30mph in an unknown zone, im fine" and it felt like 30mph too so I don't doubt the car.

I have read a lot on the PePiPoo forum tonight. Can see lots about the PACE statement and examples of it easy to find, but I don't want to challenge the legal system this way. Can see people who have done have been summonsed and I don't want that.

I challenge that I was actually speeding, but not sure how to do it. This site tells me a lot about accuracy, but not how to go about challenging it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwes ... eras.shtml

JaneC · Post by **JaneC** » Mon 04 Dec, 2006 21:49

If I was you I'd pop over to http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/index.php and ask over there. It has several traffic police on it and a magistrate or two who should be able to offer sensible advice. I'm sure this has cropped up on there before but can't find the relevant thread at the moment.

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Mon 04 Dec, 2006 21:56

Thank you!
My eyes are sore now, read so much! All interesting stuff.

RobBruce · Post by **RobBruce** » Tue 05 Dec, 2006 00:09

Don't trust the Pepipoo advice re PACE statement.

I've read it, and I think its all smoke and mirrors. If you know the procedures and read the actual evidence on the cases they 'got off', the police's evidence was rubbish.

Drop me a PM with the details and I'll have a look at it for you if you like.

Rob

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Tue 05 Dec, 2006 19:21

I have photo evidence received today. What do you make of this?

bmwstuff · Post by **bmwstuff** » Wed 06 Dec, 2006 23:39

doesnt look very clear to me, it oculd be anyone? but then they could ask for your work to provide some sort of rota on who had which car?

think read that the cams tend to pick u up on 10% +2 or something so 36 seems just out?

sometimes it not worth the hassle, had similiar plight earlier this year and in the end jsut paid and stumped up, couldnt be bother deal with the hassle.
good luck though
________
Mondial

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Wed 06 Dec, 2006 23:47

bmwstuff wrote:sometimes it not worth the hassle, had similiar plight earlier this year and in the end jsut paid and stumped up, couldnt be bother deal with the hassle.
good luck though

Im beginning to think the same, its so difficult to contest, and I can't afford the additional cost of loosing it.

You'd have thought, the officer would have thought "That read 36mph - I'll let that go" and use his discretion, and go for the 42mph Nova's instead, (or even the muggers, rapists and paedophiles). So I suspect he must have had a bad day and wouldn't let any slip....

SpunkyM · Post by **SpunkyM** » Thu 07 Dec, 2006 13:16

Some local constabularies were offering 'driving awareness courses' in cases where it was just over the limit. I think it costs about £60 to go on the course but no points on your license. Worth enquiring if it's an option for you?

Post by **Robert T** » Thu 07 Dec, 2006 13:42

Hi Chris. It all depends on how sure you are of your speed. If you know you were doing 30 mph or less then why should you have a blemish on your licence because some numpty couldn't operate a camera correctly. If you knew you were doing 35-40, then you'd have to say fair cop. But, if you thought you were doing a little over 30, then its a much greyer area.

Based on the evidence above, I can't see how you would know what kind of device was being used. I would hazard a guess that it is a video device linked to a laser/radar gun and that the 7346 and 7766 are probably frame numbers (based on 50 frames/sec over about 9 secs). I can't see anything else to identify the device, other than a record of the location (LOC 1703) and the operator (OP 2944).

As to whether the device was being operated by a traffic officer, or a monkey from a scamera partnership - I have no idea!

You'd need to see more evidence in order to contest it - like calibration certificates etc. - and I don't know whether you can get at those without going to court. You would also need to revisit the scene and try to determine the range at which your speed was measured. The more you can find out, the better.

I'd see what advice Mr Bruce can offer and proceed from there.

Cheers R.

trickyb · Post by **trickyb** » Thu 07 Dec, 2006 16:08

Chrislong wrote:You'd have thought, the officer would have thought "That read 36mph - I'll let that go" and use his discretion, and go for the 42mph Nova's instead, (or even the muggers, rapists and paedophiles). So I suspect he must have had a bad day and wouldn't let any slip....

PLEASE remember, as i have often posted - traffic officers are just that! TRAFFIC OFFICERS. They don't deal with muggers (robbers), rapists and the like because there are other officers, such as CID to do that. And, secondly, discretion is a dirty word in the Police - only those at the very top (who don't need it) have it.

TRAFFIC OFFICERS are paid, and required by their remit and job title, to catch speeding motorists etc, stop you for using mobile phones, no seatbelt etc. If they don't do that, someone else will. That's the way it is.

Chris - sorry to hear about this, but unless Rob comes up with something, i'd put it down to experience.

Chrislong wrote:I scratched my chin (goaty beard at the moment).

Think i can see you doing just that in the larger photo

pingu · Post by **pingu** » Thu 07 Dec, 2006 17:25

Unfortunately, it looks like you were spotted doing 36mph in the 1st photo.

From your words, you were flashed by the truck, slowed down, then scratched your chin.

Unless you were scratching your chin for 9 seconds it would seem to be a fair cop.

BTW, I'm sure Nick Freeman could argue that neither the driver nor the number plate are clearly visible in the first photo. "Not my client, m'lud".

Afterthought: Ask for the frame speed of the camera. Ask for a copy of the frame following the one with the speed on it. Measure the distance between the two photos, and calculate the speed (based on the frame count). That will give the average speed between the two points. If the average is over 30, you are "banged to rights". If less than 30, you have a case for the defence.

A lot of trouble to go to, but only you can decide if its worth it.

RobBruce · Post by **RobBruce** » Thu 07 Dec, 2006 21:31

trickyb wrote:
Chrislong wrote:You'd have thought, the officer would have thought "That read 36mph - I'll let that go" and use his discretion, and go for the 42mph Nova's instead, (or even the muggers, rapists and paedophiles). So I suspect he must have had a bad day and wouldn't let any slip....
PLEASE remember, as i have often posted - traffic officers are just that! TRAFFIC OFFICERS. They don't deal with muggers (robbers), rapists and the like because there are other officers, such as CID to do that. And, secondly, discretion is a dirty word in the Police - only those at the very top (who don't need it) have it.

TRAFFIC OFFICERS are paid, and required by their remit and job title, to catch speeding motorists etc, stop you for using mobile phones, no seatbelt etc. If they don't do that, someone else will. That's the way it is.

Chris - sorry to hear about this, but unless Rob comes up with something, i'd put it down to experience.

Chrislong wrote:I scratched my chin (goaty beard at the moment).
Think i can see you doing just that in the larger photo

I don't often have a full-on rant, but I'm going to now...........

What a load of bollocks! For your information, the last arrests I had were for Burglary, Robbery, Aggravated Vehicle-Taking and Criminal Damage. And that was after I pursed them from a self-initiated stop.

The last time I heard of CID pro-actively nicking someone was on The Bill. And it's usually "sorry mate, too busy, not in my remit". Tossers.
My team are consistantly have the highest arrest rate in the Area, as well as doing all the 'Traffic' stuff. To think we just swan about all day picking on innocent motorists is utter shite, and makes my blood boil.

Remember the 50cal Barratt rifle the IRA smuggled in to kill British servicemen? Found by a Traffic officer. Yorkshire Ripper? Nicked by a Traffic officer. Just Traffic officers? F*CK off.

Chris, sorry I could'nt email you the other night, got back a bit late. I've had a look at the photos here. It looks like they were taken by a civilian from the 'Camera Enforcement Unit' or whatever (hence no discretion). On video is also a bugger, as is the fact that work has already named you.

From what I can see, you've two options. (This is my personal view)
1) Pay up. Take the 3 points and watch out in future. 36 is a really low setting

2) Request a court hearing. Will make them produce all the evidence, calibration certificates, civillian who took the photo etc etc. You might need a solicitor to request all this to be taken seriously.
Its possible that something will go wrong in the evidence production, or officer not turn up etc. A solicitor can play on that. If everything turns up, plead guilty on the day. NOTE: You may get a bigger fine and points doing it this way.
I'm not a fan of the court system as it stands, and you are within your rights to play on its inefficiencies.

The choice, however, is yours mate.

Rob

Alfie · Post by **Alfie** » Thu 07 Dec, 2006 23:35

trickyb wrote:And.....discretion is a dirty word in the Police.

And therein lies one of the biggest and deepest failures in our society......

Thanks for that quote tricky, it will stick in my mind (and probably my thoat) for some time.

And Rob, you go-for-it mate.
You're in the front line and it's SO important to hear how you see it through such experienced eyes.

A.

trickyb · Post by **trickyb** » Fri 08 Dec, 2006 11:14

Rob, then i stand corrected... but when was the last time you were sent to a burgalry to complete a 4 hour booklet? The usual reader of this site has no comrehension of the difference between what you and me do.

IT must only happen in my area, 'cause, as far as my experience goes, Traffic Officers don't even want to turn out for RTC's

Glad to see not all officers are the same.

FYI - when i used CID as an example, i was trying to be sarcastic, as they're the same everywhere.

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Fri 08 Dec, 2006 16:17

RobBruce wrote: Chris, sorry I could'nt email you the other night, got back a bit late. I've had a look at the photos here. It looks like they were taken by a civilian from the 'Camera Enforcement Unit' or whatever (hence no discretion). On video is also a bugger, as is the fact that work has already named you.

From what I can see, you've two options. (This is my personal view)
1) Pay up. Take the 3 points and watch out in future. 36 is a really low setting
2) Request a court hearing. Will make them produce all the evidence, calibration certificates, civillian who took the photo etc etc. You might need a solicitor to request all this to be taken seriously.
Its possible that something will go wrong in the evidence production, or officer not turn up etc. A solicitor can play on that. If everything turns up, plead guilty on the day. NOTE: You may get a bigger fine and points doing it this way.
I'm not a fan of the court system as it stands, and you are within your rights to play on its inefficiencies.

The choice, however, is yours mate.

Rob

Hi Rob,
Thanks for the advice there mate, I don't fancy my chances (or my bank balance) on a court case. So for the sake of a few years til the points clear I think im going to be just accepting it.

One last thing tho....
If these guys have the technology now to catch speeders from such a distance that they can't even be seen, we can't call this entrapment, and won't use there discretion for the sake of 36mph in a 30mph, then whats stopping us going for a top of the range Snooper unit?

I mean... if they can catch us so easily (and lets face it, we all speed, even if in a cue of 5-10 cars. the limits always seem to be much lower than the road deserves), then our own senses can't detect us to slow down in time, im going to have to rely on gadgets to alert me.

Chris

PVR · Post by **PVR** » Fri 08 Dec, 2006 21:26

BBZ149 · Post by **BBZ149** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 19:58

Hey PVR, would be even better if somebody could design something that totally f@cked the laser camera beyond repair LMFAO.

6 MPH over limit what a bunch of 24/7 money grabbing assholes

RobBruce · Post by **RobBruce** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 12:33

PVR wrote:or just use a front parking sensor like I have which happens to interfere with the laser guns as well.

Fully legal as well

Not quite! There's ALWAYS something they'll get you on............

risquenun · Post by **risquenun** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 17:06

In my day *stands on soapbox*

we used to book 'em at 40 in a 30 and caution at 38...
I can reveal that if you live in my part of the country you woudln't have been done at that speed by a safety camera

burmagirl · Post by **burmagirl** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 17:57

Mmmm. Well just after xMas I received a BIP for apparently doing 40 in a 30mph. It was in Tiptree - not a town I know at all - & I was on my way out towards Colchester, having come in off the country roads.

I am generally pretty careful in towns, especially those I don't know - just after we moved here in Aug 04 I was camera'd twice in one day (there & back) - mobile camera van in what turned out to be a a 50mph area. I thought I had come out of it & into the 60mph, so it was my own fault for not paying more attention.

So, if I was doing 40 I must have thought I was in a 40! Unfortunately I don't have the time to drive there & back , almost 200 miles, to try & find out where the signs were, especially as a) I was following my sat nav which has a mind of its own & rarely picks exactly the same route twice, & b) while the letter identifies the road I was on, it says 'near so and so corner', which isn't on multimap or any of the others.

I looked on the Essex safety camera site to see if I could pinpoint where it was more precisely but there are no fixed or mobile cameras listed in Tiptree at all.

Sue

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 18:06

I still think it sucks. I wrote a polite letter to the Cheif Constable, along with the completed NIP, and I got a letter back.

Basically, it says: (In a nutshell, not word for word)
"I have looked at the evidence, and the video footage for this incident and the evidence is conclusive. You now have two options.

Either take this matter to court and challenge. Or complete the enclosed form and return it to collect your points and pay the fine."

Targets to meet, easy to catch, near impossible to challenge.

adaml99 · Post by **adaml99** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 18:27

Hi Chris

I got caught doing 36 in a 30 and I was given the option to attend a one day course for the cost of £105. For the return i'd get the points removed from my license.

It might be worth inquiring.

Also take a read of this, you might find it helpful:

viewtopic.php?t=11033&highlight=

Chrislong · Post by **Chrislong** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 18:53

Hi Adam,
Yes I did mention that in my polite letter, but no mention of it in the reply. It would be a preferable option.

I don't understand why it is worthy of points anyway, the whole system baffles me. I mean why don't they say if doing over 40mph in a 30, then 3 points, anything under - then a fine. Same for higher speeds too.

Yet we hear stories of important police figures, being driven at 100mph+, and because of some lame excuse - no prosecution, case dropped.

One rule for one, another for the rest of us.

Its about time somebody listened, anybody read the book animal farm by george orwell?

brenmona · Post by **brenmona** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 19:23

Or dont bother registering a car in your name, dont bother insuring taxing, or get an MOT for it, or even bother having a driving licence, then its doubtful you'll get caught . like 1 in 10 car drivers.

RobBruce · Post by **RobBruce** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 20:58

brenmona wrote:Or dont bother registering a car in your name, dont bother insuring taxing, or get an MOT for it, or even bother having a driving licence, then its doubtful you'll get caught . like 1 in 10 car drivers.

Yeah please don't - me and my ANPR love that sort of person.

brenmona · Post by **brenmona** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 23:07

RobBruce wrote:
brenmona wrote:Or dont bother registering a car in your name, dont bother insuring taxing, or get an MOT for it, or even bother having a driving licence, then its doubtful you'll get caught . like 1 in 10 car drivers.
Yeah please don't - me and my ANPR love that sort of person.

Now thats cheered me up

Where do i sign up for the ' we want more APNRs and less speed cameras' campaign

RobBruce · Post by **RobBruce** » Tue 23 Jan, 2007 23:25

brenmona wrote:
RobBruce wrote:
brenmona wrote:Or dont bother registering a car in your name, dont bother insuring taxing, or get an MOT for it, or even bother having a driving licence, then its doubtful you'll get caught . like 1 in 10 car drivers.
Yeah please don't - me and my ANPR love that sort of person.
Now thats cheered me up

Where do i sign up for the ' we want more APNRs and less speed cameras' campaign

I think you can petition the prime minister direct on www.petitions.pm.gov.uk

I'll sign up for sure!!

namatjira · Post by **namatjira** » Tue 24 Apr, 2007 17:48

Might be able to help.

Have been involved in examining admissability of technical evidence. Often can get cases thrown out because of failure to follow due diligence. This can happen even to the best of officers let alone some civvy in a partnership van.

Good luck anyway

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon 07 May, 2007 16:26

While front parking sensors, lasar scrambers, and even some garage door openers will prevent the laser unit from measuring your speed, the camera will still record your registration number.

After two 'failed' readings, the police will require you to bring your car for an examination, after which you will be required to correct the situation. There will be no more excuses after that - those who sell these preventives never tell their customers about that!

The only answer is to pay attention to the speed limits, and drive accordingly - it may sound a bit holier than thou, but it's the only answer - unless you move to France etc like me!

namatjira · Post by **namatjira** » Mon 07 May, 2007 19:00

The thing to remember is that these various speed measuring devices are frequently wrong or not operated in a legally compliant fashion.

For example with a regular gatso, are you aware that whenever the film canister is removed the seal is not allowed to be broken until it can be witnessed and that the witness must sign the fact, otherwise all, I repeat, all images captured have no value in court. However they still issue tickets off them, most people pay up, and most do not challenge the evidence if it goes to court.

This is not anecdotal, I personally have had a speeding ticket thrown out of court because the photographic evidence was excluded for this very reason. The speeding amount claimed would normally have been written off and just 3 points on my license, but I asked for the photographic evidence they would reply on (as is my right) and they sent me the details including the unsigned witness to canister opening statement. Job done.

Are you also aware that if they are using a handheld device to measure your speed they must be located in such a position that does not require them to move the device during operation. If they move it they invalidate it.

With speed average devices that rely on the operator to press a button when the driver passes over a mark (usually a white square) and then again when he passes over the next white square, the reaction times of the operator can be challenged in court and usually result in dismissing the evidence as unreliable. The same also with measurements on a two lane road that go around a bend, each lane will have a different distance making the result unreliable.

It goes on.

The general operation and use of such equipment is not to be trusted even though the technology appears and can be made to appear relaiable.

If in doubt challenge.

Ian.j · Post by **Ian.j** » Sat 16 Jun, 2007 10:29

do you have a tomtom or other gps device that gives you a speed reading as it might be worth comparing the gps speed to the car speedo i use one in my vehicles at work and all the speeds are out by a few miles per hour, usually over the real speed.
If the rover is over the actual speed then your work should admit some blame, don't think it will get you off with it but you could make them suffer for a while till it wears thin

Kipper · Post by **Kipper** » Sat 16 Jun, 2007 19:33

The only answer is to pay attention to the speed limits, and drive accordingly - it may sound a bit holier than thou, but it's the only answer - unless you move to France etc like me!

Mike I understood the French police were merde chaud on speeding, is this not so!

Or is it just foreign plates, I thought if you were caught 15mph over the limit you had to abandon the car and walk.

zroadster.net

Caught speeding, although I believe I wasn't!

Caught speeding, although I believe I wasn't!

doesnt look very clear

Re: doesnt look very clear

Re: doesnt look very clear

Re: doesnt look very clear

Re: doesnt look very clear

another option...

If this is still going on then PM me.

Due Attention

rights relating to speeding