Needless ritual?

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Bonzo
Joined: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 21:52
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Norfolk

Needless ritual?

Post by Bonzo »

In the mid 60's, when I was around 17, I used to watch and hand spanners to an old boy who used to de-coke and overhaul car engines. He told that when I got a car I must remember to do the following; After starting the engine do not rev it, then engage all of the gears in the gearbox twice before moving off. When driving off do not use excessive revs until the engine is up to temperature. Do not rev the engine when switching off. I know motor oils have improved no end since then, But I still carry out his instructions to this day, and I don't rev beyond 3000 r.p.m. until the temp. gauge has been at the mid point for 5 minutes.
What do you mechanical marvels out there think of all this? A needless ritual?

:cheers

Bonzo
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.
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pingu
Joined: Fri 30 Apr, 2004 16:01
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  M roadster S50

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by pingu »

Some "rituals" do more harm than good. I don't think yours will do any harm.

I always warm the engine up slowly before giving it the beans. That's why I don't do the "dawn runs" and I like being at the back on cruises :wink: .

I don't see the point of engaging ALL the gears, but I always "squeeze" 2nd before engaging 1st when stationary, or giving it a good double-declutch if on the move.
Pingu
mrscalex
Joined: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 09:14
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by mrscalex »

Sounds very similar to my outlook. Don't know about engaging all the gears though.
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2001 Z3 2.2 Topaz Blue (Trudy) - Keeper rebuilt from a write-off
2002 Z3 2.2 Titan Silver (Cookies) - Keeper rebuilt having been bought with a seized engine
2002 Z3 3.0 Sapphire Black (Peanut) - Keeper awaiting rebuilding having been bought as an abandoned project
Plus Willy, Kodak & Maycee - All 2.2 Sport projects. Yes, 6 is a lot of Z3s :)
Always happy to try and help with spares :)
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motco
Joined: Tue 18 Aug, 2009 18:12
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  Z3 roadster 2.2i

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by motco »

pingu wrote:Some "rituals" do more harm than good. I don't think yours will do any harm.

I always warm the engine up slowly before giving it the beans. That's why I don't do the "dawn runs" and I like being at the back on cruises :wink: .

I don't see the point of engaging ALL the gears, but I always "squeeze" 2nd before engaging 1st when stationary, or giving it a good double-declutch if on the move.
I agree about the gears thing - what could it possibly do? The 'squeeze' of 1st gear is a legacy of driving non-synchro first gears as fitted to all cars up until the late 1960s - much later for some. It used the synchro of second to stop the crash first gear clusters spinning. My Westfield has a crash reverse and it still pays to do the squeeze before engaging reverse. Warming up is a good idea of course, but as well as not revving, don't labour either.
gookah
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  Z3 roadster 2.8

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by gookah »

how many cars are on the road that do not do any of this at all, and they all seem to still be working fine...
I dont see a raft of breakdown vehicles with people being told "thats what you get for revving it when cold", and I rarely see or smell blue smoke nowadays either.
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motco
Joined: Tue 18 Aug, 2009 18:12
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Re: Needless ritual?

Post by motco »

It's more to do with longevity than breakdowns.
gookah
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Re: Needless ritual?

Post by gookah »

hence the blue smoke reference to worn out engines, and the comment they are 'still working fine' I should have said 'recovery' vehicles
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Z3 2.8 Progress Journal (Mine)
Z3 1.9 Sport Progress Journal (Wifey's)

I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
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pingu
Joined: Fri 30 Apr, 2004 16:01
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  M roadster S50

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by pingu »

gookah wrote:how many cars are on the road that do not do any of this at all, and they all seem to still be working fine...
I think you are probably right.

Next time I use my jallopy, I think I'll jump in, fling the door open so it bounces off the stop and closes by itself, start it up, rev the balls off it, slam it into gear, drop the clutch, wheelspin off the kerb, hammer it to the end of the street and screech to a stop, then wrench the handbrake on so hard it clicks 15 times.

It doesn't seem to have done my neighbour's son's car much harm.

:D
Pingu
mrscalex
Joined: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 09:14
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by mrscalex »

pingu wrote:
I think you are probably right.

Next time I use my jallopy, I think I'll jump in, fling the door open so it bounces off the stop and closes by itself, start it up, rev the balls off it, slam it into gear, drop the clutch, wheelspin off the kerb, hammer it to the end of the street and screech to a stop, then wrench the handbrake on so hard it clicks 15 times.

It doesn't seem to have done my neighbour's son's car much harm.

:D
You've seen the way my brother drives his 1 Series then :lol:
ImageImage
2001 Z3 2.2 Topaz Blue (Trudy) - Keeper rebuilt from a write-off
2002 Z3 2.2 Titan Silver (Cookies) - Keeper rebuilt having been bought with a seized engine
2002 Z3 3.0 Sapphire Black (Peanut) - Keeper awaiting rebuilding having been bought as an abandoned project
Plus Willy, Kodak & Maycee - All 2.2 Sport projects. Yes, 6 is a lot of Z3s :)
Always happy to try and help with spares :)
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lordhelpus
Joined: Sat 14 Sep, 2013 09:46
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Tax Exile

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by lordhelpus »

I think you are probably right.

Next time I use my jallopy, I think I'll jump in, fling the door open so it bounces off the stop and closes by itself, start it up, rev the balls off it, slam it into gear, drop the clutch, wheelspin off the kerb, hammer it to the end of the street and screech to a stop, then wrench the handbrake on so hard it clicks 15 times.

It doesn't seem to have done my neighbour's son's car much harm.

:D[/quote]

Pingu that's hilarious............ :lol: :lol: :lol: :bow
1997 2.8................ Montreal Blue
Bonzo
Joined: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 21:52
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Norfolk

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Bonzo »

Possibly the gear changing thing gave time for all that old thick oil to get all round the engine before pulling away?

:cheers
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.
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Robert T
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  Z3 roadster 1.9
Location: Cheshire

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Robert T »

Or perhaps not. The only place engine oil and gearbox oil come into contact with one another is the drain hole in the bottom of the bell-housing when they leak out of the back of the engine and front of the gearbox respectively. Yes, I know some cars share the oil, but that's a relatively modern innovation with transverse engines.

I don't even muck about selecting gears on the Sprite. Though it has a more modern Ford Type-9 gearbox on it which is much easier to use than the original.

Just keep the revs below about 3000 until the engine warms up. An oil temp gauge helps to know when everything is nicely warmed up, but unless you're going to rag the arse off it, the coolant temp gauge is sufficient.

Cheers R.

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Arctic Silver '99 Z3 1.9 & Black '59 Frogeye 1275cc
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motco
Joined: Tue 18 Aug, 2009 18:12
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  Z3 roadster 2.2i

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by motco »

I suspect Bonzo meant the time taken to do the gear ritual allowed the engine oil to circulate a bit. My Dad used to spin his car engines over for a few seconds before switching on the ignition so that oil pressure could start to build. Can't be done since the ignition key operated the starter though.

The original Mini had shared engine and gearbox/transmission oil back in 1959.
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Robert T
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Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Robert T »

Some people would call 1959 "modern".

My Sprite is largely based on engineering from an earlier age. If it hasn't run for a while it seems to take some effort to get fuel through the carb, so spinning the engine without ignition would probably also help with that. I have to turn the ignition on on mine as it has an electric fuel pump.

Cheers R.

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pingu
Joined: Fri 30 Apr, 2004 16:01
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  M roadster S50

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by pingu »

Robert T wrote:Some people would call 1959 "modern". Image

My Sprite is largely based on engineering from an earlier age. If it hasn't run for a while it seems to take some effort to get fuel through the carb, so spinning the engine without ignition would probably also help with that. I have to turn the ignition on on mine as it has an electric fuel pump.

Cheers R.

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Do you have a decompression lever as well as advance/retard on the steering wheel :wink: :) ?

Seriously, to make things last as long as possible, cranking with ignition off would help a lot. 300-400 rpm with no oil pressure is safer than 900 rpm.
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motco
Joined: Tue 18 Aug, 2009 18:12
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  Z3 roadster 2.2i

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by motco »

Robert T wrote:Some people would call 1959 "modern". Image

My Sprite is largely based on engineering from an earlier age. If it hasn't run for a while it seems to take some effort to get fuel through the carb, so spinning the engine without ignition would probably also help with that. I have to turn the ignition on on mine as it has an electric fuel pump.

Cheers R.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
I once had a 1970 Midget and that was pretty antediluvian with it's crash first and reverse gears, Rotaflo dampers, dynamo charging, separate ignition/start functions. The front dampers used more oil than the engine! Bits fell off, literally, on occasions. I toured Scotland in it with a big so-called self-locking nut from the suspension missing unbeknown to me. However, I daresay a Frogeye is even cruder. I had forgotten the rallentando chatter of the fuel pump before you could start it.
Bonzo
Joined: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 21:52
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Norfolk

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Bonzo »

Robert T wrote:Or perhaps not. The only place engine oil and gearbox oil come into contact with one another is the drain hole in the bottom of the bell-housing when they leak out of the back of the engine and front of the gearbox respectively. Yes, I know some cars share the oil, but that's a relatively modern innovation with transverse engines.

I don't even muck about selecting gears on the Sprite. Though it has a more modern Ford Type-9 gearbox on it which is much easier to use than the original.

Just keep the revs below about 3000 until the engine warms up. An oil temp gauge helps to know when everything is nicely warmed up, but unless you're going to rag the arse off it, the coolant temp gauge is sufficient.

Cheers R.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
I actually meant the engine oil to get round the engine!
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.
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Robert T
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  Z3 roadster 1.9
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Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Robert T »

motco wrote:I once had a 1970 Midget and that was pretty antediluvian with it's crash first and reverse gears, Rotaflo dampers, dynamo charging, separate ignition/start functions. The front dampers used more oil than the engine! Bits fell off, literally, on occasions. I toured Scotland in it with a big so-called self-locking nut from the suspension missing unbeknown to me. However, I daresay a Frogeye is even cruder. I had forgotten the rallentando chatter of the fuel pump before you could start it.
I've never actually driven a standard Frogeye, but I should think it is pretty scary in traffic. Mine has quite a lot of concessions to modern living: 1275cc engine with a single Dellorto carb (no messing with trying to set up dual carbs), electronic ignition (no points to get damp), front disc brakes, 5 speed gearbox, Spax adjustable telescopic dampers on the rear, an ARB, halogen headlights, alternator, satnav, boot light. It retains the looks and character of the original, but handles like a go-kart, will take off from a standing start like poo off a spade, and can cruise at 70 on the motorway without breaking a sweat. It's even pretty comfortable on our bumpy roads, but for a few rattles you wouldn't get on a modern car. Best bit though, which you don't get with modern cars, is the noise. :D

Cheers R.
Arctic Silver '99 Z3 1.9 & Black '59 Frogeye 1275cc
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Wavesong
Joined: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 18:46
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Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Wavesong »

pingu wrote:
gookah wrote:how many cars are on the road that do not do any of this at all, and they all seem to still be working fine...
I think you are probably right.

Next time I use my jallopy, I think I'll jump in, fling the door open so it bounces off the stop and closes by itself, start it up, rev the balls off it, slam it into gear, drop the clutch, wheelspin off the kerb, hammer it to the end of the street and screech to a stop, then wrench the handbrake on so hard it clicks 15 times.

It doesn't seem to have done my neighbour's son's car much harm.

:D
Isn't this how all youngsters drive today? They all seem devoid of any mechanical empathy. It is something of a miracle that today's cars will tolerate such abuse and they clearly haven't had to coax a 60's or 70's car to get them to work and back on a cold winters morning for an early shift. Thats progress for you.
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Robert T
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Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Robert T »

Wavesong wrote:Isn't this how all youngsters drive today? They all seem devoid of any mechanical empathy. It is something of a miracle that today's cars will tolerate such abuse and they clearly haven't had to coax a 60's or 70's car to get them to work and back on a cold winters morning for an early shift. Thats progress for you.
Neighbour took me out in his Audi yesterday. It seems that they have replaced the accelerator with an on/off switch. :?

Cheers R.
Arctic Silver '99 Z3 1.9 & Black '59 Frogeye 1275cc
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motco
Joined: Tue 18 Aug, 2009 18:12
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  Z3 roadster 2.2i

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by motco »

Robert T wrote:
Wavesong wrote:Isn't this how all youngsters drive today? They all seem devoid of any mechanical empathy. It is something of a miracle that today's cars will tolerate such abuse and they clearly haven't had to coax a 60's or 70's car to get them to work and back on a cold winters morning for an early shift. Thats progress for you.
Neighbour took me out in his Audi yesterday. It seems that they have replaced the accelerator with an on/off switch. :?

Cheers R.
Is he a Tokyo taxi driver in his spare time? :lol:
Del
Joined: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 18:35
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Del »

Letting the engine get up to temperature is still recommended on highly tuned/modified engines, before working them to their limits. The M engines are probably closer to this category.
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Alfie
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Location: Broadchurch....

Re: Needless ritual?

Post by Alfie »

Oil temp in an ///M engine must reach 80deg before going past 3k rpm. It's the LAW...! :shock:

As I understand it, this is to make sure that the VANOS has a full supply of warmed oil before it gets a hammering.
That's why our S50s and S54s have oil temp gauges....

A.
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mrscalex
Joined: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 09:14
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Re: Needless ritual?

Post by mrscalex »

Alfie wrote:Oil temp in an ///M engine must reach 80deg before going past 3k rpm. It's the LAW...! :shock:

As I understand it, this is to make sure that the VANOS has a full supply of warmed oil before it gets a hammering.
That's why our S50s and S54s have oil temp gauges....

A.
I think that's sensible with any engine.

Mind you I don't drive my Z3 above 3k RPM much anyway! I figure the slower I go by the more time I give pedestrians to share the Z3 experience :)
ImageImage
2001 Z3 2.2 Topaz Blue (Trudy) - Keeper rebuilt from a write-off
2002 Z3 2.2 Titan Silver (Cookies) - Keeper rebuilt having been bought with a seized engine
2002 Z3 3.0 Sapphire Black (Peanut) - Keeper awaiting rebuilding having been bought as an abandoned project
Plus Willy, Kodak & Maycee - All 2.2 Sport projects. Yes, 6 is a lot of Z3s :)
Always happy to try and help with spares :)
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