I was thinking about going the M3 engine route to give my car the heart it needs but i have decided that, that is not really needed as i just want a bit more! So i have decided to get my BMW Z1 converted or uprated to a 2.7 as i want to have even more fun with my Zed. I have been speaking to Horke in Germany and hopefully he can point my in the right direction.
however if anyone else knows anyone or in which direction i should go please let me know. I love my Zed and i want to personlise it as much as i can for my own pleasure.
many thanks, Ben..
Standard Z1 2.5 to 2.7..
Standard Z1 2.5 to 2.7..
Benslick
Re: hi
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood you. Nothing useful to suggest, sorry. I'm sure it must be possible though. Would chipping not sort you out?benslick wrote:No, because i don't want to go the engine transplant route i just want a conversion done for that bit more power like the 2.7 Alpina Z1 RLE....
Ciao,
Spokey
Spokey
jackal on PH wrote:i love your profile... an endless pornographic paroxysm of the letters BMW
do you actually like driving at all or are cars to you just a manifestation of some sort of pathological mother complex ?
-
PhoenixCoupe
- Joined: Wed 02 May, 2007 00:46
- Posts: 739
- Location: Mars
My understanding was that a 2.7 engine conversion used the block from a 525e (or 325e if you can find one) with a 325i/525i head - which would involve an engine swap of sorts. I believe this is basically what Alpina and BMW SA did.
Another option would be an M30 x35i engine, which is a fairly easy swap for an E30 325i - certainly as easy as building a 2.7 engine and possibly cheaper. A M88 / S38 M5 engine is a pretty easy swap as well.
Another option would be an M30 x35i engine, which is a fairly easy swap for an E30 325i - certainly as easy as building a 2.7 engine and possibly cheaper. A M88 / S38 M5 engine is a pretty easy swap as well.
With the big M30 it gets to heavy at the front, this will disturb the weight balance, for this reason the tuners did not do this conversion on the Z1. 
I built my 2.7 over the winter with the Schnitzer Specs. Alpina and Hartge are about the same.
Different from the M20 Z1/325i are: (all original BMW parts
)
-Adapted cilinderhead: the burning room is adapted because of the adapted pistons. My cilinderhead adaption was done by Kolb Motorsport.
-Special Pistons: from KolbenSchmid or Mahle. Schnitzer used KS, Alpina used Mahle. Kolb delivered the KolbenSchmid for me and fitted them on the head.
-Crankshaft: from 2.7eta, you can also use the one from the diesel 324td.
-Camshaft: Schnitzer used an 282, Alpina an 270, Hartge AFAIK a Schrick 284/272. I used the Schrick also because the Schnitzer 282 is no longer available.
-Software: adapted at the dyno
-Every thing else from the engine is original 325i/Z1, I did everything else also using only new original parts!
The other adaptions where:
-Rear axle drive: Alpina (3.73) and Hartge (4.27) also changed the rear axle drive. Schnitzer did not. I mounted the 3.91 because off the 18 inch wheels.
-Bigger 17 inch wheels with different tyre sizes.
-I also mounted an Supersprint exhaust manifold.
Result: a much bigger
I built my 2.7 over the winter with the Schnitzer Specs. Alpina and Hartge are about the same.
Different from the M20 Z1/325i are: (all original BMW parts
) -Adapted cilinderhead: the burning room is adapted because of the adapted pistons. My cilinderhead adaption was done by Kolb Motorsport.
-Special Pistons: from KolbenSchmid or Mahle. Schnitzer used KS, Alpina used Mahle. Kolb delivered the KolbenSchmid for me and fitted them on the head.
-Crankshaft: from 2.7eta, you can also use the one from the diesel 324td.
-Camshaft: Schnitzer used an 282, Alpina an 270, Hartge AFAIK a Schrick 284/272. I used the Schrick also because the Schnitzer 282 is no longer available.
-Software: adapted at the dyno
-Every thing else from the engine is original 325i/Z1, I did everything else also using only new original parts!
The other adaptions where:
-Rear axle drive: Alpina (3.73) and Hartge (4.27) also changed the rear axle drive. Schnitzer did not. I mounted the 3.91 because off the 18 inch wheels.
-Bigger 17 inch wheels with different tyre sizes.
-I also mounted an Supersprint exhaust manifold.
Result: a much bigger
Last edited by pierrez1 on Sun 27 May, 2007 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
There was an article in one of the UK BMW magazines recently about using the crankshaft from a recent 2.8 engine in a 2.5 M20 engine. It allowed retention of the original block and head with only a machined adapter ring on the crank. Don't recall what was done about con rods and pistons; will check to see if I still have the magazine. Seems like a cost effective way to get 2.8 litres of torque.
2.8 is not very easy because the crankshaft of the 2.8 from the more modern engines has to be adapted to fit into the m20 engine.
With the 2.4td or eta crankshaft which where mounted in the M20 it is plug and play.
There are more different and cheaper possibility's to do the 2.7 conversion.
Just using the 2.7 crankshaft of the diesel or the eta in combination with the shorter connection rod of the 320i will do the trick. You just have to take a few mm of the engine block to get the right compression.
But now you have 2.7 but no 200 BHP or more. Only max. 180 bhp and a little more torque.
The prominent tuners went all the way and adapted the pistons, cylinder head and the camshaft also in combination with the necessary software on the dyno.
IMO the Z1 only deserves the real thing!
With the 2.4td or eta crankshaft which where mounted in the M20 it is plug and play.
There are more different and cheaper possibility's to do the 2.7 conversion.
Just using the 2.7 crankshaft of the diesel or the eta in combination with the shorter connection rod of the 320i will do the trick. You just have to take a few mm of the engine block to get the right compression.
But now you have 2.7 but no 200 BHP or more. Only max. 180 bhp and a little more torque.
The prominent tuners went all the way and adapted the pistons, cylinder head and the camshaft also in combination with the necessary software on the dyno.
IMO the Z1 only deserves the real thing!
I've found the article: it was titled: How to best increase your E30 325i's power - 2.7 and 2.8 Engine Build and was in the March 2007 issue of Total BMW.
They stated that the 2.8 crank could be used with only a spacer needed (machined from the M52 crank pulley hub) in order to hold the oil seal. It otherwise dropped in using standard pistons and 130mm con rods from the eta engine. Just depends which components you have easiest access to I guess.
They stated that the 2.8 crank could be used with only a spacer needed (machined from the M52 crank pulley hub) in order to hold the oil seal. It otherwise dropped in using standard pistons and 130mm con rods from the eta engine. Just depends which components you have easiest access to I guess.
-
PhoenixCoupe
- Joined: Wed 02 May, 2007 00:46
- Posts: 739
-
- Location: Mars
I've driven an E30 '338i' (powered by a 315bhp S38 M5 engine) and it was not that much more nose heavy than a standard 325i - it all depends on where the engine is actually mounted in the bay, Alpina used 2 postions in their E30 models - later ones moved the engine further back. The M30 from memory is about 50kg heavier. If the engine is mounted in the later rearmost postion used by Alpina and Hartge, the weight distribution is very little changed.pierrez1 wrote:With the big M30 it gets to heavy at the front, this will disturb the weight balance, for this reason the tuners did not do this conversion on the Z1.
Only lazy modifiers use the front most engine mounting position, which does seriously affect weight distribution.
I would assume being E30 based, the Z1 would be pretty much the same deal.
Benslick,
I've been thinking about this one for a long time now. The S50/S52 route that senna has taken is definitely the ultimate. Issues on that which would trouble me are the Z1 clutch and gearbox, both designed to cope with the puny M20, and also getting hold of the right donor motor that hadn't been caned to within an inch of its life already. I would discount the E30 M3 (S14) motor on account of the way it delivers its power. The Z1 is not a light car, and the M3 motor is very peaky. Though it has high top end power, the torque is actually lower than that on your old M20. You would end up with a Z1 that might make more mph at the top end, but would seem even less punchy than it does now. I drive an S14 every day and on cam it is just electifying, but bogged down off cam it loses its fiz big style. If you saddle it with the overdrive gearbox of the Z1 (effectively removing one ratio below the direct 1:1) it would lose even more sparkle.
I also looked at the 2.7 route with much interest. It seems it is a reliable way of getting about 210bhp, with more useful torque, and also keeps your engine "original" in terms of the way it looks (handy if you have an insurance assessor looking at it) and even keeps the original engine number.
I think there is a viable third way though. There seems to be an increasing number of people fitting 24v motors to their E30s, from E36 328i cars (is that the M50?). These engines look attractive to me for the following reasons:
* Lots of 328s around, many with low mileage and genuine careful owners, which is more than can be said for the M3
* The engine itself doesn't need even to have the rocker cover taken off, no "mechanical" tuning at all, therefore no further stress on it.
* With a different inlet manifold (from the 320i I think) and airflow meter, coupled with a mild remap, 225bhp is easily attainable.
* This engine comes with a much less restrictive exhaust manifold
* Better fuel consumption and smoother running from the newer engine, without a sports cam
There are issues around the EWS immobiliser system, but these are not a problem any more for those who know what they are doing. It also requires changes to the mounts and use of a different sump (I think), and possible adaptation of the plenum chamber or brake servo.
However, on balance, I think that might be the route that I will ultimately go for. Let's face it, the cost of a sub 50,000 mile 328 motor from a crashed car would not be high, and with 225bhp from an engine that revs as sweetly as that one does would be very nice indeed in a Z1.
The other aspect that attracts me perhaps even more is the fact that this is the engine with the plastic inlet manifold and alloy block. I don't know the numbers, but it must be a weight saving over the 2.7 eta route, with the heavy old cast iron block that we are cursed with already.
That's my twopenneth, and what I intend to do when I get around to it. Whatever you do end up doing, it will widen your grin even further, because if ever there was a car was crying out for a bit of extra grunt, the Z1 has to be it!
Keep us posted on your odessy.........
I've been thinking about this one for a long time now. The S50/S52 route that senna has taken is definitely the ultimate. Issues on that which would trouble me are the Z1 clutch and gearbox, both designed to cope with the puny M20, and also getting hold of the right donor motor that hadn't been caned to within an inch of its life already. I would discount the E30 M3 (S14) motor on account of the way it delivers its power. The Z1 is not a light car, and the M3 motor is very peaky. Though it has high top end power, the torque is actually lower than that on your old M20. You would end up with a Z1 that might make more mph at the top end, but would seem even less punchy than it does now. I drive an S14 every day and on cam it is just electifying, but bogged down off cam it loses its fiz big style. If you saddle it with the overdrive gearbox of the Z1 (effectively removing one ratio below the direct 1:1) it would lose even more sparkle.
I also looked at the 2.7 route with much interest. It seems it is a reliable way of getting about 210bhp, with more useful torque, and also keeps your engine "original" in terms of the way it looks (handy if you have an insurance assessor looking at it) and even keeps the original engine number.
I think there is a viable third way though. There seems to be an increasing number of people fitting 24v motors to their E30s, from E36 328i cars (is that the M50?). These engines look attractive to me for the following reasons:
* Lots of 328s around, many with low mileage and genuine careful owners, which is more than can be said for the M3
* The engine itself doesn't need even to have the rocker cover taken off, no "mechanical" tuning at all, therefore no further stress on it.
* With a different inlet manifold (from the 320i I think) and airflow meter, coupled with a mild remap, 225bhp is easily attainable.
* This engine comes with a much less restrictive exhaust manifold
* Better fuel consumption and smoother running from the newer engine, without a sports cam
There are issues around the EWS immobiliser system, but these are not a problem any more for those who know what they are doing. It also requires changes to the mounts and use of a different sump (I think), and possible adaptation of the plenum chamber or brake servo.
However, on balance, I think that might be the route that I will ultimately go for. Let's face it, the cost of a sub 50,000 mile 328 motor from a crashed car would not be high, and with 225bhp from an engine that revs as sweetly as that one does would be very nice indeed in a Z1.
The other aspect that attracts me perhaps even more is the fact that this is the engine with the plastic inlet manifold and alloy block. I don't know the numbers, but it must be a weight saving over the 2.7 eta route, with the heavy old cast iron block that we are cursed with already.
That's my twopenneth, and what I intend to do when I get around to it. Whatever you do end up doing, it will widen your grin even further, because if ever there was a car was crying out for a bit of extra grunt, the Z1 has to be it!
Keep us posted on your odessy.........
Best regards,
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Sam,
Thanks for a well-researched post. A few comments:
Thanks for a well-researched post. A few comments:
- The M50 engine is the 2.5 24v; the 2.8 24v started as the M52 in the E36 and then the M52TU in the E46. The M52 has VANOS on the intake cam and the M52TU has it on both cams.
Some of the M52 2.8's had the dreaded nikasil problem so need to be approached with a bit of caution.
Somewhere I saw the weights of the M20 vs the M52 engine and the M52 wasn't that much lighter; the savings in the ali block was partially offset by the heavier cylinder head assembly. The numbers were:- M20: 258lbs
M30: 315lbs
M50: 299lbs
M52: 260lbs (alloy) 308lbs (iron)
S50: 300lbs
S52: 308lbs
S14: 234lbs
- M20: 258lbs
Felix,
Those are interesting numbers, and not what you'd necessarily think either. I suppose the M20 is pretty simple in the head department. It was the E36 328 that I was considering, the M52.
We'll see, as it will be a fair while before I get to do anything more than just think about this one. My Z1's only done 62,000 kms, so the motor is as fresh as they day it was put together. It's just a bit puny, that's all!
Those are interesting numbers, and not what you'd necessarily think either. I suppose the M20 is pretty simple in the head department. It was the E36 328 that I was considering, the M52.
We'll see, as it will be a fair while before I get to do anything more than just think about this one. My Z1's only done 62,000 kms, so the motor is as fresh as they day it was put together. It's just a bit puny, that's all!
Best regards,
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Mine only had 50000 km
But I thought about it since my first Zettie in 2000, always looked for a Schnitzer and after all these years looking for it I finally decided to rebuilt one. Luckily the Schnitzer people helped with the specs.
And after all the hard work and money I can only say it was worth every Euro.
But I thought about it since my first Zettie in 2000, always looked for a Schnitzer and after all these years looking for it I finally decided to rebuilt one. Luckily the Schnitzer people helped with the specs.
And after all the hard work and money I can only say it was worth every Euro.
Hello Ben
there's a company in my neighborhood which is specialized on M20-Conversions. They offer conversions from 2.9l up to 3.2l - with 203BHP up to 258BHP.
It's not that cheap (258 BHP will cost you about 5000 Pounds) ... but if you like ...
Sorry - only in german : http://www.kolb-motorsport.de/
A 2.7l-Conversion should be cheap (about 1000 Pounds for Parts) - and easy to do.
there's a company in my neighborhood which is specialized on M20-Conversions. They offer conversions from 2.9l up to 3.2l - with 203BHP up to 258BHP.
It's not that cheap (258 BHP will cost you about 5000 Pounds) ... but if you like ...
Sorry - only in german : http://www.kolb-motorsport.de/
A 2.7l-Conversion should be cheap (about 1000 Pounds for Parts) - and easy to do.
Personally, I always wonder about these accusations that the engine in the Z1 is underpowered. Sure, the engine is not as potent as my M5, but I don't have any problem getting the car to go places. Am I doing something wrong?
Ciao,
Spokey
Spokey
jackal on PH wrote:i love your profile... an endless pornographic paroxysm of the letters BMW
do you actually like driving at all or are cars to you just a manifestation of some sort of pathological mother complex ?
Spokey,
In the contrary mate. It looks like it might be we who are either doing something wrong or just plain ungrateful. No real complaint, just the "what if?" feeling every time you put your right foot down.
The Z1 is such a sweet car to drive, I just can't help wondering what it would be like with a bit more get up and go. I don't want or expect a real rocketship, which is why I am attracted to the M52 route over the S50/S52 - it seems to me what BMW would have done if they had had the capacity to see the Z1 into "proper" production. The fact that the E36 was such a runaway success meant there just wasn't the point in keeping on with the Z on a corporate level. That's where the Z3 offered so much more commercial potential - the car they could eventually sell in the US.
Hey ho. It is interesting the different paths different people take to get to their own individual destinations.
In the contrary mate. It looks like it might be we who are either doing something wrong or just plain ungrateful. No real complaint, just the "what if?" feeling every time you put your right foot down.
The Z1 is such a sweet car to drive, I just can't help wondering what it would be like with a bit more get up and go. I don't want or expect a real rocketship, which is why I am attracted to the M52 route over the S50/S52 - it seems to me what BMW would have done if they had had the capacity to see the Z1 into "proper" production. The fact that the E36 was such a runaway success meant there just wasn't the point in keeping on with the Z on a corporate level. That's where the Z3 offered so much more commercial potential - the car they could eventually sell in the US.
Hey ho. It is interesting the different paths different people take to get to their own individual destinations.
Best regards,
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
I think the trick is to use the car's "sweetness" to keep up speeds in the bends, then you've also got the engine on the boil all the time. To be honest, I've never really found the car to be wanting for power, unless I was caning it up Kesselchen ... in fact, even that isn't really true.sfh3l wrote:Spokey,
In the contrary mate. It looks like it might be we who are either doing something wrong or just plain ungrateful. No real complaint, just the "what if?" feeling every time you put your right foot down.
The Z1 is such a sweet car to drive, I just can't help wondering what it would be like with a bit more get up and go.
Sure, other cars are quicker in a straight line, but that's always going to be the case. Personally, I've never found the Z1 to be particularly underpowered, even compared to my daily drive.
Ciao,
Spokey
Spokey
jackal on PH wrote:i love your profile... an endless pornographic paroxysm of the letters BMW
do you actually like driving at all or are cars to you just a manifestation of some sort of pathological mother complex ?
Definitely right re keeping the speed up. An early mornig drive is always good for that. Where it is less than perfect is during the hours when the rest of the population are awake (?) and in their cars, and overtaking is the order of the day. If you catch the speed/gear combo right then there is a wave of torque to surf on. Catch someone at the "wrong" speed, and the overtake is a bit more of a challenge.
I haven't taken my Z1 on the track yet. I was going to at the BMWCC day at Silverstone last year, but they were a bit arsy about windows being wound up to 80% closed and made cabrio drivers put their hoods up. I don't really want to track the car with the roof up as it knackers the visibility on the rear quarters, which is just where the faster people come from!
I haven't taken my Z1 on the track yet. I was going to at the BMWCC day at Silverstone last year, but they were a bit arsy about windows being wound up to 80% closed and made cabrio drivers put their hoods up. I don't really want to track the car with the roof up as it knackers the visibility on the rear quarters, which is just where the faster people come from!
Best regards,
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
What faster people?sfh3l wrote:which is just where the faster people come from!
Ciao,
Spokey
Spokey
jackal on PH wrote:i love your profile... an endless pornographic paroxysm of the letters BMW
do you actually like driving at all or are cars to you just a manifestation of some sort of pathological mother complex ?
Te he! Plenty in my case.
Best regards,
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Sam Lever.
Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Rolls 20 - '72 911T - 997 GTS
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL & Austin 7 Special - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog
Here's a pdf with some info on "breathed-upon" M20 engines: http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdfs/M20_ ... ochure.pdf
Not cheap but they seem well thought out and a complete package. Metric Mechanic has been around for 20 years or more and is quite well thought of. A bit heavy for checked baggage though!
Not cheap but they seem well thought out and a complete package. Metric Mechanic has been around for 20 years or more and is quite well thought of. A bit heavy for checked baggage though!
Horke did not know that you live nearby. Kolb did my cylinderhead and delivered the pistons and adapted the compression of my schnitzer 2.7. I drove down there im my M and picked up the stuff personallyhorke wrote:Hello Ben
there's a company in my neighborhood which is specialized on M20-Conversions. They offer conversions from 2.9l up to 3.2l - with 203BHP up to 258BHP.
It's not that cheap (258 BHP will cost you about 5000 Pounds) ... but if you like ...
Sorry - only in german : http://www.kolb-motorsport.de/
A 2.7l-Conversion should be cheap (about 1000 Pounds for Parts) - and easy to do.
