SS Headers & Manifold

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Jet
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SS Headers & Manifold

Post by Jet »

Im no Techie so forgive the silly question, but has anyone fitted a Stainless Steel Manifold (Header) to the Z1?

What are the advantages of a 6 branch Header exactly? I understand it is considered free flowing compared with the original, from the picture it looks like the mixture of exiting gases occur much closer to the Head as opposed to the 6 branch, so is the concern the gases could return into the chamber causing contamination

Can anyone say categorically, a LHD 6 branch E30 3Series Manifold/Header will fit the Z1?

Thanks

Jet
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Gazza
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Re: SS Headers & Manifold

Post by Gazza »

Jet wrote:
Can anyone say categorically, a LHD 6 branch E30 3Series Manifold/Header will fit the Z1?

Thanks

Jet
Depends on the position of Ancillary equipment, Mounting points should be the same but the path that the headers take could be different.
Gazza

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felix
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Post by felix »

The Z1 shares its manifolds with similar engined cars of the era but the down pipe, cat and pipework to the rear silencer are one piece and unique to the Z1. If headers fitted the engine compartment you would need fabrication work done to fit them to the existing system or get a new centre section fabricated. You would also need to be mindful of the length of the headers, not just the width, so that the flange on the collector isn't the lowest point underneath the car.

In my opinion removing the cat would not achieve much; neither would headers - at least until you open the engine and port the head and change the cam. An engine is effectively an air pump - improving flow in one area will have little effect if there are bottlenecks elsewhere. The oxygen sensor would need to be retained to keep the ECU happy.

As an aside headers will be louder than the factory manifold - the cast iron is very good at absorbing some of the harshness of the exhaust pulses - fairly thin walled stainless steel isn't.
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Post by Jet »

Hi Felix,

Having played around enough with the Interior and exterior, I would like to embark on a little Heart to Heart work and improve air flow with these small modifications, as I have been advised that this is the main factor in making the engine more efficient.
As you say, a header alone wont do the trick, but I plan to work on the entire system as time goes by.

Thanks for the advice and I will be back with more questions, no doubt.

Rgds

Jet
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Gazza
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Post by Gazza »

Those headers will look smart if you can find some to fit, Much like those used for Mustangs :P
Last edited by Gazza on Fri 08 Aug, 2008 14:39, edited 1 time in total.
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by felix »

happy to help and do be aware that free advice is worth the price! :lol: :wink:
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Stoertie
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Re: SS Headers & Manifold

Post by Stoertie »

Jet wrote:Im no Techie so forgive the silly question, but has anyone fitted a Stainless Steel Manifold (Header) to the Z1?

What are the advantages of a 6 branch Header exactly? I understand it is considered free flowing compared with the original, from the picture it looks like the mixture of exiting gases occur much closer to the Head as opposed to the 6 branch, so is the concern the gases could return into the chamber causing contamination

Can anyone say categorically, a LHD 6 branch E30 3Series Manifold/Header will fit the Z1?

Thanks

Jet


Hi Jet,

have you forgotten my mail to this theme? ;-)

I think there are only two manifolds fitts to the Z1... the part from Supersprint (this one is made for the the Z1 and it also fitts to the E30) and the Schaffer Manifold I have mounted together with the sport calatytic converter and with german TÜV-approval... ;-)

All manifolds made for the E30 will not fit to the Z1, because of he less space in the Zetti.

At the engine test station you will find no big difference between a normal serial car (with a good tuning chip <I think you already got from me?>) and a car with manifold and sporting cat. But when you drive it you can feel, that the throttle response is better then before...

I additional changed the the cam shaft to an 284/272 from Schrick. In the midrange the power is a littlebit lower then with the original cCam shaft, but there is more power up to 7000 rpm. The engine without the schrick cam shaft is loosing it's power at ~ 6.000 rpm, my one has the the same level up to nearly 7000.
This is something you do not feel at the normal public roads... Only at the race track you feel the differnce.

I think, for normal using the manifold and sport cat is nice to have, but cam shaft makes no sense.

Only way to get a big difference to a serial Z1 is to modify the engine to a 3000 cc engine. Franz Schaffer just did it for a friend from neatherland and was very successful. 223 HP and nearly 300 Nm.

With that modification the Z1 is as good as a Z3 3.0... :D :D :D

The friend of us is very happy to have a quick and powerful Z1 now. ;-)

The cost of this modification in the workshop of the "Z1 pope" Franz Schaffer is round about 9000,- Euro... :shock:

Best regards
Michael
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Jet
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Re: SS Headers & Manifold

Post by Jet »

Stoertie wrote:
Jet wrote:Im no Techie so forgive the silly question, but has anyone fitted a Stainless Steel Manifold (Header) to the Z1?

What are the advantages of a 6 branch Header exactly? I understand it is considered free flowing compared with the original, from the picture it looks like the mixture of exiting gases occur much closer to the Head as opposed to the 6 branch, so is the concern the gases could return into the chamber causing contamination

Can anyone say categorically, a LHD 6 branch E30 3Series Manifold/Header will fit the Z1?

Thanks

Jet


Hi Jet,

have you forgotten my mail to this theme? ;-)

I think there are only two manifolds fitts to the Z1... the part from Supersprint (this one is made for the the Z1 and it also fitts to the E30) and the Schaffer Manifold I have mounted together with the sport calatytic converter and with german TÜV-approval... ;-)

All manifolds made for the E30 will not fit to the Z1, because of he less space in the Zetti.

At the engine test station you will find no big difference between a normal serial car (with a good tuning chip <I think you already got from me?>) and a car with manifold and sporting cat. But when you drive it you can feel, that the throttle response is better then before...

I additional changed the the cam shaft to an 284/272 from Schrick. In the midrange the power is a littlebit lower then with the original cCam shaft, but there is more power up to 7000 rpm. The engine without the schrick cam shaft is loosing it's power at ~ 6.000 rpm, my one has the the same level up to nearly 7000.
This is something you do not feel at the normal public roads... Only at the race track you feel the differnce.

I think, for normal using the manifold and sport cat is nice to have, but cam shaft makes no sense.

Only way to get a big difference to a serial Z1 is to modify the engine to a 3000 cc engine. Franz Schaffer just did it for a friend from neatherland and was very successful. 223 HP and nearly 300 Nm.

With that modification the Z1 is as good as a Z3 3.0... :D :D :D

The friend of us is very happy to have a quick and powerful Z1 now. ;-)

The cost of this modification in the workshop of the "Z1 pope" Franz Schaffer is round about 9000,- Euro... :shock:

Best regards
Michael
Morning Stoertie,

Thank you for the reminder, I didnt forget exactly, but I have been told by another owner that the LHD E30 SS header does fit, he has had it fitted a few months ago, I dont know how he did it, but I will find out.

Jet
felix
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Post by felix »

Here's a link about an engine upgrade with reference to using headers from Supersprint... http://www.mcfly.lu/z1/

And if you go to www.supersprint.it they actually list a part that is stated to be compatible with the OEM cat. It looks to be the same part number as that for the 325i.
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Post by Jet »

felix wrote:The Z1 shares its manifolds with similar engined cars of the era but the down pipe, cat and pipework to the rear silencer are one piece and unique to the Z1. If headers fitted the engine compartment you would need fabrication work done to fit them to the existing system or get a new centre section fabricated. You would also need to be mindful of the length of the headers, not just the width, so that the flange on the collector isn't the lowest point underneath the car.

In my opinion removing the cat would not achieve much; neither would headers - at least until you open the engine and port the head and change the cam. An engine is effectively an air pump - improving flow in one area will have little effect if there are bottlenecks elsewhere. The oxygen sensor would need to be retained to keep the ECU happy.

As an aside headers will be louder than the factory manifold - the cast iron is very good at absorbing some of the harshness of the exhaust pulses - fairly thin walled stainless steel isn't.
Felix, you fancy doing an exhaust mod for me? :D

You are spot on, took the exhaust off the car to reveal the full length centre 1piece, my CAT is not looking very healthy, so I have to think about:

A) Replace CAT for extortionate amount.

B) Delete CAT from equation, replace with standard Silencer and pipework, reprogram chip to accomodate Oxygen sensor requirement. (CAT requirement is from 92 onwards, so i am in the safe zone).

Does that sum it up and anything else I need to think about?

PS: TeaTray you have a Lorenz system? Did they keep the CAT?

Jet
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Post by felix »

You say the cat doesn't look healthy - what brings you to say that? If the emissions figures for your car are low it's working correctly. If you can come close to reaching the factory-rated top speed on the road or the bhp figure on a rolling road it must be flowing well. I personally am not a fan of removing a working cat as I may be travelling behind you some day. :D Any chance you can post a photo?

All that said I remember using a steel bar to smash the ceramic substrate of the cat on some American car my brother owned 20 years ago. If the cat substrate is ceramic and you can reach it down the pipework this would be an alternative.
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Post by Jet »

UnHealthy from the outside, its all rusty by the joint and going soft, not sure how these things are constructed but maybe its just the outter skin? My emissions are spot on though at the last MOT test.

I will try to post some pics.
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Post by pierrez1 »

Beware, after the Dutch guy with the Schaffer 3.0 drove in my Schnitzer 2.7 he was lost and had to have more power :D

I mounted the Supersprint headers they fit very good :D
I also removed my Cat and it replaced by a handcrafted silencer.
Both adaptions are nice, but don't do the trick, the adaption most tuners like Alpina, Hartge and Schnitzer brings value for money.
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Hahaaha

Post by benslick »

Your talking about Harold! I can't wait to do the same with my engine. Do you still have your Z3 as well as your Z1?
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Post by pierrez1 »

Yes Harolds the one and yes they are still there, still very happy with them both :oops:
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Post by Jet »

pierrez1 wrote:Yes Harolds the one and yes they are still there, still very happy with them both :oops:
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Pierre,

I think you should sell the funny Yellow one, it looks a little old now, I know someone who would take it from you for a small fee :)
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Hi

Post by benslick »

I have to say your AC Z1 is one of my all time favourite Z1s not only does she look good she also sits perfectly on her susspention, has the updated front and rear lights great ac alloys and steering wheel and not to metion your 2.7 litre engine...

When I copy Harold again I will have a 3.0 litre conversion instead of an M3 engine when I have the spare cash.

all the best, Ben
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Post by Jet »

Felix,

as you can see, the joints are wearing away, is that just an outer skin, as there is no blowing or leaking going on in there.


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Holland Harry
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Post by Holland Harry »

Hi jet,

from Benslick I heard you have some big trouble with the enigine. Maybe you should let Franz Schaffer have a look at your engine. I know he lives near Munich but I also went there. From my home it's 875km. he is already more than 15 years into the Z1 and knows almost all the problems and the solutions.

The manifold is a nice upgrade because it brings a little bit of torque. But the difference isn't that big. If you really want a faster engine you need the 2.7l or the 3.0l conversion. Also the the 3.91 or 3.73 25%LSD is a thing that give you much more fun than the maniflod.

So my advice go to Franz Schaffer and let him build you a 3.0l Schaffer like I did. I does the trick! No more TDI,CDI an so on that bother you.

I did the same and was really impressed. My wife has a Z3 3.0l and the Z1 as a 3.0l is simply quicker. :twisted:

A little warning at the end. I costs a hell of a lot of money. Around €6000,- for the 2.7l and €9000,- for the 3.0l.

Greetings Harold
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Post by Jet »

Harold,

Its the engineers and BMW taking 3months to deliver my steering rack parts from Germany that is the problem :shock:
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Post by FinerZ1 »

Hi Harold,

Can you tell me how long it took Frank to convert your engine?

Jet...wanna buy an shiney Aprilia RSV 1000? :twisted:

Cheers

Paul
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Post by Holland Harry »

Hi Paul,

Franz Schaffer did the total convertion in 4 weeks.

This was including the first 880km of testdriving by Franz himself.
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Post by Jet »

FinerZ1 wrote:Hi Harold,

Can you tell me how long it took Frank to convert your engine?

Jet...wanna buy an shiney Aprilia RSV 1000? :twisted:

Cheers

Paul
Paul,

Where ya been? I still have to drop by and deliver your trim, so get in touch. Either that or I will just fit it to my car, then tea leaf the other side :D

Is it going to cost me more because it is shiny? How you getting on with the move to the sunny side?
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Post by felix »

Holland Harry wrote:Hi jet,

from Benslick I heard you have some big trouble with the enigine. Maybe you should let Franz Schaffer have a look at your engine. I know he lives near Munich but I also went there. From my home it's 875km. he is already more than 15 years into the Z1 and knows almost all the problems and the solutions.

The manifold is a nice upgrade because it brings a little bit of torque. But the difference isn't that big. If you really want a faster engine you need the 2.7l or the 3.0l conversion. Also the the 3.91 or 3.73 25%LSD is a thing that give you much more fun than the maniflod.

So my advice go to Franz Schaffer and let him build you a 3.0l Schaffer like I did. I does the trick! No more TDI,CDI an so on that bother you.

I did the same and was really impressed. My wife has a Z3 3.0l and the Z1 as a 3.0l is simply quicker. :twisted:

A little warning at the end. I costs a hell of a lot of money. Around €6000,- for the 2.7l and €9000,- for the 3.0l.

Greetings Harold
I'm guessing the 2.7 uses the crank from the eta engine and the standard 84mm bore. Any idea what crank the 3.0 uses? A 2.8l crank from the M52 engine plus 86mm pistons gives 3.0 as would using the 3.0 crank from the M54 engine with the standard 84mm bore but I understand a lot of machine work is required to make the M54 crank work in the M20 block. And any idea what camshaft?
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Post by Holland Harry »

felix wrote:
Holland Harry wrote:Hi jet,

from Benslick I heard you have some big trouble with the enigine. Maybe you should let Franz Schaffer have a look at your engine. I know he lives near Munich but I also went there. From my home it's 875km. he is already more than 15 years into the Z1 and knows almost all the problems and the solutions.

The manifold is a nice upgrade because it brings a little bit of torque. But the difference isn't that big. If you really want a faster engine you need the 2.7l or the 3.0l conversion. Also the the 3.91 or 3.73 25%LSD is a thing that give you much more fun than the maniflod.

So my advice go to Franz Schaffer and let him build you a 3.0l Schaffer like I did. I does the trick! No more TDI,CDI an so on that bother you.

I did the same and was really impressed. My wife has a Z3 3.0l and the Z1 as a 3.0l is simply quicker. :twisted:

A little warning at the end. I costs a hell of a lot of money. Around €6000,- for the 2.7l and €9000,- for the 3.0l.

Greetings Harold
I'm guessing the 2.7 uses the crank from the eta engine and the standard 84mm bore. Any idea what crank the 3.0 uses? A 2.8l crank from the M52 engine plus 86mm pistons gives 3.0 as would using the 3.0 crank from the M54 engine with the standard 84mm bore but I understand a lot of machine work is required to make the M54 crank work in the M20 block. And any idea what camshaft?
Evening Felix,

The only info I have from my 3.0l M20 Schaffer engine is:
2962 ccm (normal 2494 ccm)
85,5 x 86 mm ( normal 84 x 75 mm)
compression 9,75:1
camshaft 272⁰

Regards,

Harold
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felix
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Post by felix »

Cheers Harry! :thumb:
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Post by apollo »

My Z1 is too FAST and my Gallardo is too SLOW
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Post by felix »

Presumably hp is limited by retaining the stock cam? Should give stacks of low end torque though. Any idea who built the engine?
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Post by apollo »

felix wrote:Presumably hp is limited by retaining the stock cam? Should give stacks of low end torque though. Any idea who built the engine?
Don't know, I suppose the cam is mild as the M20 engine does not like being hot.
What is the longevity on an over bored/stroked M20 engine?
I thought the M20 lump could not easily take more than 2.5l for a long time.
Looking at how commonly M20's blow their head gaskets I wonder if they can take the extra heat generated.

Hence Turbo and over boring was not very common in the 80's and 90's but putting in a big heavy M30 engine was. (eg the: South African 333i)
My Z1 is too FAST and my Gallardo is too SLOW
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Post by felix »

This looks to be a bargain basement price for Supersprint headers for the Z1: http://www.xenon.lv/lv/index.htm?id=com ... 82&to=1994

Here are a couple of UK prices:

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/prod ... c84263cb7a

http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/items/CA ... B-2009.xls
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Post by Racing Tortoise »

Ballsy ordering from Latvia though...
Currently: bereft of Z1
Previously: 1991 Ur-grun Z1 and 1991 Traum-schwartz Z1
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Post by felix »

Not at all - arrived 2 working days later and is the real thing - beautiful welds without the sharp edges that Chinese copies have.
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Post by Racing Tortoise »

felix wrote:Not at all - arrived 2 working days later and is the real thing - beautiful welds without the sharp edges that Chinese copies have.
So you ordered it then? Did it fit on easily?
Currently: bereft of Z1
Previously: 1991 Ur-grun Z1 and 1991 Traum-schwartz Z1
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Post by Jet »

felix wrote:Not at all - arrived 2 working days later and is the real thing - beautiful welds without the sharp edges that Chinese copies have.
You bought a set Felix? your patience paid off in the end, how do you plan to connect to the CAT?
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Post by felix »

They only arrived on Monday - need to crawl under the car this weekend and see just how they fit. My expectation is that the cat section would need to be shortened just like that recently sold via ebay - see http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 0425450605
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