Passenger window issue

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 16:44

Hello,

for a couple of years now I've had this issue with the passenger window.
Wether door is down or up I can't manage to have the window completely hidden in the door.

It was a minor issue (maybe 1/2 cm out of the door).

Today I had to start with wires and now the window is out of 10 cm.

Do you know if there is something to do?

I asked BMW 2 years ago, they charged me 400€, found nothing and told me it was maybe the window motor but were not sure of it at all.

Thank you for your help.

horke · Post by **horke** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 18:56

"start with wires" - means that your battery was empty ?

Usually the easies thing is to unplug the battery for a couple of seconds and "erase" the memory of the door-system.
The fist time after you do this - it starts a calbration. Which means that the door goes to the highest point it can get and the memory is programmed with that position of the door.
If the window does not go down completely - the it's a mechanical issue. If the door does not go up completely it is either a mechanical problem with the door - or an adjustment of the roof.

If you're not familiar with the door-system I would suggest going to a Z1-specialist instead of a BMW-Dealer.

sfh3l · Post by **sfh3l** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 19:08

My Lord

I just know that I am going to regret responding to this post because I'll show my ignorance, but I can't resist having a go.

Supposing that the door is closing in the right place and latching correctly, and the hood is also in the correct place, I think that the problem is with the electric window motor. I disovered to my horror that the motor actually counts the number of revolutions that it has done at any one point. This seems utterly pointless to me, but is apparently so that if your window is half way open and you open the door and reclose it, the window returns to where it was - so what I say. There could be an issue with the microswitch/sensor that is doing this counting somehow being fooled into thinking the window is at the top already when it is not?

Failing that, does the window go any higher when the hood is down and out of the way?

The other potential problem is the window stops. From what I saw of our technical workshop a couple of weeks ago, these are tricky little blighters.

I am sure that one of the more learned brothers on here will be able to be more help on this problem, but this is at least a start!

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 19:09

I'm desperate, I've been looking for years for a Z1 specialist on the French Riviera...

sfh3l · Post by **sfh3l** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 19:17

After what I saw of Michael at our workshop I would suggest a nice drive up through the Alps to Hamburg and spend a couple of days there. Michael is a genius with these cars and he will help you.

Failing that, next time we drag him over for a door workshop, I'll host it but I'll do a house swap with you for the weekend!

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 19:19

If I remember well you can set the max position of the windows by keeping pressed the window switch for a dozen of seconds...

If only BMW dealers in my area had the knowledge (Monaco, Nice, Cannes...)

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 19:22

sfh3l wrote:After what I saw of Michael at our workshop I would suggest a nice drive up through the Alps to Hamburg and spend a couple of days there. Michael is a genius with these cars and he will help you.

Failing that, next time we drag him over for a door workshop, I'll host it but I'll do a house swap with you for the weekend!

We can do a house swap but I live in an one room appartment (28m²)

Not enough time for the moment to travel to any UK/German or even French workshop

There is a well know place near Lyon by the way for the Z1.

horke · Post by **horke** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 19:57

Lord Taki wrote:I'm desperate, I've been looking for years for a Z1 specialist on the French Riviera...

I would suggest a ride to munich - or to be precise moosburg (www.kfz-schaffer.de).

F.Brossaud · Post by **F.Brossaud** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 20:39

Bonsoir,
As tu essayé de réinitialiser le mécanisme ?
-Couper la batterie, porte en position haute
-ouvrir la porte qui va tomber toute seule
-appuyer sur le bouton, un bruit qui semble etre la réinitialisation du mécanisme se fera entendre.

J'ai déja démarré la voiture avec des pinces, je n'ai jamais eu un tel probleme. Pour éviter ce brobleme, j'utilise un coupe battery

PS: sorry for british friends, do you allow me to write in french to a french friend ?

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 22:01

Hi LT,

that problm with the window sounds a little bit strange...

If the window doesn't work correct after the reset, Horke explained (you can also take out the fuses 25 and 26) please check the following:

1. Check if the windowlifter switch is in the correct position in the cover. If the sitch is too deep inside, it sometimes makes trouble. (Maybe change also the left to right switch, to be shure that there is no defect at the switch itself.

2. Check the contacts of the connector to the door control units. Maybe these contacts are oxidised.

3. If all the points above are OK and also the wiring conections between windowlifter motor and conrol unit, it meight be really a problem of the windowlifter motor.

4. If the door itself works 100% correct and if it's latched correct in the upper position every time, the microswitch meight not be the problem.

5. The permanent lower position of he window, which is a few millimeter too high, is adjustbale with the screw at the window lifter arm. - That's no problem.

Best regards
Michael
http://www.leder-pflege.de/
http://www.roadster-fashion.de
http://leder-pflege.zett-eins.de/catalog/

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 09:44

I'm gonna try the reset first. I took it today at work (beautiful weather).

The door is working perfectly.
For point 5, I can't figure out the location you are talking about

Thank you for your advises.

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 11:09

Hi LT,

at the connectipon between the white sliding piece of the window lifter and the windowlifter arm (see point "A" in the pic) you can adjust the general hight of the window, when the door is open (down).

At the point marked with "B" (blocker for the windolifter) you can adjust the hight of the window in the closed position (door and window closed)
After you adjust the upper position, please make a reset of the door control unit, to let it learn the new position, otherwise the jam-protection meight be activated everytime you close the window.

Regards
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 11:47

Thank you for the picture and explanations.

I guess I'll have to get my hands dirty, be brave and try to remove the panels

PS: in case you haven't notice I'm not really into mechanics

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 12:45

Lord Taki wrote: PS: in case you haven't notice I'm not really into mechanics

... so maybe you should really think about a trip to the beautiful Munich area (Moosburg). It meight be not very cheap, but a short vistit in the Z1-hospital of Franz Schaffer will solve all problems of your car, and when everything is finished you will have no more trouble and a lot fun with your car...

All the best
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Mon 13 Jul, 2009 15:36

BMW dealer in Cannes called me and found the issue => 1000€ (without taxes so add 20%) only for the parts.
Add at least 4 hours of handling at 100€/h => big bill for such a small issue

I have to admit I'm wondering if they don't change everything just because they don't know the real root cause.

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Mon 13 Jul, 2009 18:41

They are crazy, aren't they?

... I'll do it for € 800,- incl. all maintainace parts, time and TAX

But you have to come to the north of Germany...

Best regards
Michael

felix · Post by **felix** » Mon 13 Jul, 2009 19:36

What did they replace?

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Mon 13 Jul, 2009 23:19

I was told they gonna replace the entire window system.
More info on Wednesday.

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Tue 14 Jul, 2009 06:23

Hi LT,

did I understand it right: They want to change the whole window system? - Now I'm shure... They are crazy!

There is really no reason (accept a side crash) to change parts for so much money. In worst case the only expensive part is the window lifter motor ( € 315,- ) all other max. needed parts are:

The Sliding Piece - € 3,92
Stoppers for the window lifter arm - € 23,50 (but not avalible from BMW)

If they also change the other parts, needed for a complete door mechanic maintenance, you can calculate additional € 150,- Euro (round about)...

BTW: They told you that the repair will take 4 hours? - Have you asked them howmany times they did such a job before?

If somebody makes such a high offer for the "needed" parts, I'm shure they have never done this job before... so they will need much more time to take out the complete door and get it working again...

Until now I did a lot of door maintenace, but I'm calculating 6 hours for this job to do it perfect.

Italy is nor so far away from you... maybe you can ask Mauro Ferlisi, if he knows any workshop for this job? ( http://www.zetauno.it )

Best regards
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 14 Jul, 2009 07:42

Thank you for your inputs and offer.
I wanted anyway to find technical drawings of the door to understand how it works.
And for sure I'm gonna ask more questions tomorrrow.

The only problem I have to switch to another dealer (Germany, Italy or even not so far near Lyon) is that the door is completely in parts for the moment and I'm pretty sure they will ask me to pay just for that even without fixing anything.

I will keep you updated of course.

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Wed 15 Jul, 2009 07:54

So I got more infos on this subject.

Sorry if my technical english is poor (I had to use babelfish for some words).

In fact the the plate and the guide are curved (le plateau et le guide sont cintrés) => 600€ + 150€. Don't know if this can be uncurved but at this point for sure I prefer a brand new piece.

The motor of the window and the belt are ordered but may not be replaced.

I'm a linux sysadmin not a BMW engineer

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Wed 15 Jul, 2009 09:34

Hi LT,

that sounds very strange to me... I'm nearly 100% shure, that the groundplate will be bent only by a big crah into the side of your car, or when the bearing oft the rear axle had been quarry out of the chassis...

So I think they just change everything and pray that the window will work then... so what? - The customer (in that case you) will pay for!

It's the typical way of BMW repair... Same in Germany!

Best regards
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Wed 15 Jul, 2009 12:47

I guess I will have a better picture of the problem after a while.

At least this time the uy told me that the motor may not be the issue and is only ordered to avoid another week or two...

But this is the second time they look at it and in the end I don't feel they know what is going on.

Maybe next I will invite one member of the forum on the French Riviera (plane ticket and hotel)... I may get better support for cheaper :p

Jet · Post by **Jet** » Wed 15 Jul, 2009 13:08

Lord Taki wrote:I guess I will have a better picture of the problem after a while.

At least this time the uy told me that the motor may not be the issue and is only ordered to avoid another week or two...

But this is the second time they look at it and in the end I don't feel they know what is going on.

Maybe next I will invite one member of the forum on the French Riviera (plane ticket and hotel)... I may get better support for cheaper :p

2 TICKETS!!

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Wed 15 Jul, 2009 16:57

175€ for a round trip London/Nice
150€ per night

Depending on how much you ask for a full door service it might be interesting in the future

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Wed 15 Jul, 2009 17:47

.... Jet and me are a perfect team!

So we can reduce the time at the car to increase the time at the bar!

Regards
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Mon 17 Aug, 2009 13:51

I've just been informed by the BMW dealer of Cannes that the plate part is no more available from BMW.

I've been waiting for more than a month for nothing.

So I'm asked to find a second hand part!? But they won't accept to use it anyway!

I guess I'm all by myself on the French Riviera

felix · Post by **felix** » Mon 17 Aug, 2009 14:03

What part are they referring to - can you find out the number?

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Mon 17 Aug, 2009 14:11

I'll get the part number tomorrow when I take back the car.

"You should check with the Z1 club."

Thanks for the advise dude but I'm already part of it

Jet · Post by **Jet** » Mon 17 Aug, 2009 14:30

Oh dear, not this part is it...?

Stoertie wrote:Hello @all,

sorry, I wasn't here for a long time...

Jet is right when he wrote that all maintainace parts for both doors are approx. € 700,- ...

But there are only two really important parts you need for operating the door.

1. the TOOTH BELT ( Parts-No.: 51 33 2 290 509 )
2. the CATCH FRONT LEFT ( Parts-No.: 51 21 2 291 631)
CATCH FRONT RIGHT ( Parts-No.: 51 21 2 291 632 )

The other Parts (LOCKING PINS, SLIDING PIECES) are nice to have and easy to change, when you have to change the BELT and/or the CATCH but not really important to open/close the doors. You can operate the doors when these these parts are worn out, but you can't open/close the doors with a broken Catch (normaly the microswitch is defect) or a broken Tooth Belt.

My last information from today (10:40 am), is that there are avalible at BMW stock:

TOOTH BELTS (51 33 2 290 509 - € 58,31): 53 pcs
CATCH LEFT (51 21 2 291 631 - € 196,35): 6 pcs
CATCH RIGHT (51 21 2 291 632 - € 196,35): >100 pcs
LOCKING PIN REAR TOP (51 21 2 291 084 - € 5,95): 0 pcs
LOCKING PIN REAR BUTTOM (51 21 2 290 583 - € 16,78): 0 pcs
LOCKING PIN FRONT (51 21 2 290 582 - € 19,64): 68 pcs
SLIDING PIECE (door front) (51 33 2 290 487 - € 2,06): 6 pcs
SLIDING PIECE (window lifter arm) (51 33 2 290 479 - € 3,92): >100 pcs

At the moment nobody (at BMW CLASSIC) knows if the LOCKIN PINS for the rear, will be manufactured or not and if when... I think it will be the same, when other parts are out.

So, sooner or later it's possible that we will have problems...

Best regards
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 08:34

Here is the part number:

51 33 2 290 470 (plaque base droit <- don't know how to translate that in english)

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 08:49

Lord Taki wrote:Here is the part number:

51 33 2 290 470 (plaque base droit <- don't know how to translate that in english)

in english it's called "Base Plate Right" and the price is ~ 500,- Euro.

They are really crazy!!! There is no reason to change the whole base plate, except somebody chrashes into the right side of the car and bent the base plate.
For all other malfunctions you can chage the parts mounted at the plate. Only the stoppers for the windowlifter arm are not avalible at BMW (but mounted at spare parts base plate). But these stoppers you can get from me (23,50 Euro/Set plus shipping)

All the Best
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 09:39

They say it is bent but they don't know why.

I know the car has never been involved so far in an accident.

I was told they replaced belt/motor without improving the behavior so they put back the used parts.

Well at least this time the bill was 0€...

I think I'm good for a trip near Lyon at Carrosserie des Monts D'or. It is a well known place for the french bmw z1 club members.

To be continued.

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 10:21

Hi again,

did they already change the base plate? If not, maybe you can arrange to compair the old and the new base plate by your own? - I'll bet you, that there will be only one difference between the two parts. One will be used and one will be new!

This base plate is made out of 2mm thick steel (I think) and it's fixed at the chassis at 6 points with 6 screws... so you need very much power to bent it, when it's mounted...

But when they do not charge their work, then it's ok...

Have a nice day and all the best
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 11:57

Impossible to compare since they can't get a new base plate.

I'll keep you updated if I can figure this out.

felix · Post by **felix** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 13:37

Lord Taki, please take the time to summarise what's not working correctly. From what I can gather from your previous posts:

-the passenger door (ignoring the window for a moment) goes up and down just fine whether commanded by pushing the external lock button or pulling the internal handle
-when the door is lowered the passenger window will not drop down into the door completely; at first it protruded by 0.5 cm and now by 10 cm.

When the door is up does the window go to the top via turning the key in the door lock or the internal switch?
Can you use the switch to lower the window by those last 10cm or will it not drop lower by any means?

I had some driver side window issues - would start rising too early as the door was closing and would require multiple button pushes or key turns to close and then sometime not at all - which were solved via a replacement motor. It was Michael

who suggested this might be the problem and he was 100% right.

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 13:53

hello felix

- the door itself has no problem
- when the door is up and I'm inside the car, I use the internal switch to lower the window => 10 cm
- when I operate the door, it is going down fine but the window reaches the same position with 10 cm left

BMW dealer tried another motor without success.

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 14:56

Lord Taki wrote:hello felix

- the door itself has no problem
- when the door is up and I'm inside the car, I use the internal switch to lower the window => 10 cm

... do you lower the window for only 10cm or will you open it fully and it stops after 10cm? If it stops by itself, then there is a problem...

Lord Taki wrote: - when I operate the door, it is going down fine but the window reaches the same position with 10 cm left

That's total OK... When you open the door while the window is open, the widow should reach the same position after closing the door. - That's normal!

Lord Taki wrote: BMW dealer tried another motor without success.

Changing the motor first is so stupid! It seemed, that they are repairing with the try and error system! - Did they know what they do?

The motor will not be the problem (when there is a problem). The window stops automatical (or by error), when the windolifter switch is not fittet correctly inside the panel (too deep inside) or when the microswich at the catch is defect, or when there is a bad contact at the door contorl unit (white connector) and after checking all these points there is a small chance that there is a defect at the motor... (broken cable or something like this)

Regards
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Tue 18 Aug, 2009 16:29

Stoertie wrote:
Lord Taki wrote:hello felix

- the door itself has no problem
- when the door is up and I'm inside the car, I use the internal switch to lower the window => 10 cm
... do you lower the window for only 10cm or will you open it fully and it stops after 10cm? If it stops by itself, then there is a problem...

It stops until there are 10 cm left out of the door. There's nothing I can do with the switch to open fully the window.

Stoertie wrote:
Lord Taki wrote: - when I operate the door, it is going down fine but the window reaches the same position with 10 cm left
That's total OK... When you open the door while the window is open, the widow should reach the same position after closing the door. - That's normal!

I see what you mean and I wasn't precise enough on this point.
The previous position is door/window fully in up position.
I open the door and there are still 10 cm of window out.

Thank you Michael for taking the time to understand my issue.

I have now my own experience with a BMW dealer dealing with a Z1 door/window system

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Thu 01 Oct, 2009 17:36

Finally fixed.
I was told that BMW probably didn't do anything on my car considering the state of my right door...

Any way...

It was this lever #4 that was bent.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/u/u/5.png

ps: png not handled by this version of phpbb

Stoertie · Post by **Stoertie** » Thu 01 Oct, 2009 17:46

Hi LT,

and now everything is fine again?

To bend this part you need a lot of power. I'm shure it will not bent by itself... and when it's bent it dosen't stop the window movement. - Very strange!

Hope everything is working well for the future.

Best regards
Michael

Lord Taki · Post by **Lord Taki** » Thu 01 Oct, 2009 18:24

I saw a picture new part vs old part and definitely there was a big issue.
I don't know how it happens.

I will ask to get the 2 pictures taken when replacing it.