Plastic types for body panels

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xyobgyn
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Plastic types for body panels

Post by xyobgyn » Sun 31 Jan, 2016 16:46

My Z1 is need for some repair work on panels.

In particular, the front bumper has broken plastic bits that help align it, along with the usual fender issues.

Does anyone in the forum have a fender or bumper off the car already, where they might be able to search the part on the inside section for a specific imprinted tag or label that specifies the type of plastic that the parts are made of.

I would like to do some plastic welding in stead of using body panel adhesives and combinations of metal or plastic to re-create the missing parts.

There are many plastic supply houses where I could buy matching plastic for welding, but I am hoping to match this perfectly.
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Pat Slade
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Pat Slade » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 08:09

Hi,

Can't help with tech. on plastics, but I believe Michael Kabbert makes repair pieces for the forks on the front "bumper".
Worth looking at web site "Z1 Online High End Tuningparts by Kabbert"
Hope this may be of some help.

Pat

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ICE C
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by ICE C » Wed 02 Mar, 2016 13:08

Hi Xyobgyn,

I have tech data on the bmw Z1 when it was originally designed. I think the detail of the plastic bodywork may be in there. I will reply at the weekend if its in there.

regards,

Ice c

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ICE C
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by ICE C » Sat 05 Mar, 2016 13:05

Hi Xyobgyn

I have just had a look and the material is described as high performance technical grade thermoplastic material. Sorry if this isn't much help.

regards,

C

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by xyobgyn » Sat 05 Mar, 2016 15:57

Kotflügelverstärkungen für BMW Z1
Kotflügelverstärkungen Satz für hinteren Kotflügen vordere Bohrung, mit VA-Unterteil links und rechts in rot, schwarz oder Alu.
Art.- Nr.: 900003/04


Stoßstangenreparaturblech für BMW Z1
Stoßstangenreparaturblech für vordere Stoßstange, seitliche Aufnahme links oder rechts in ALU (vorne).
Art.- Nr.: 900030

Online German translation suggests these are the two items I need, first for the front fenders top rail, and the second for the front bumper. (My car is green, I assume I should choose aluminum version?)

When I take the parts off the car I will try and locate any pressings that might specify the plastic types. For now, perhaps these parts will suffice.

I thought there was a part made to reinforce the space over the key-hole in the rear fender where prior owner put too much weight?
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motco
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by motco » Sun 06 Mar, 2016 09:02

It's likely to be ABS in my experience from working in the plastics industry. However I must say that my experience is not too recent. :oops:

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Pat Slade » Tue 08 Mar, 2016 15:52

The first repair part in your mail relates to the top mounting of the REAR wing. The aluminium casting reinforces this top fixing point. The bolt and fixing are visible below hinged leather flap to allow hood frame to pass.
The second repair item is for the locating fork on the front "bumper". One on each side of the front moulding.
You should be able to get a feel for the structure, and where and what these parts do, by looking at the specific Z1 websites.

Pat

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by ChrisS » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 12:49

Has anyone used the reinforcements for the front edge of rear wings? The contact area for the adhesive seems very small for a part that is under tension and is subjected to a lot of vibration.

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Stoertie
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Stoertie » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 08:12

ChrisS wrote:Has anyone used the reinforcements for the front edge of rear wings? The contact area for the adhesive seems very small for a part that is under tension and is subjected to a lot of vibration.
Hi ChrisS,

you are right! The area is too small to repair with adhesive, because the adhesion of the glues that works work with this plastic material is not good enough and the mechanical stress at this poin too big. I have the same ~ 1/2 inch crack since I can remember and I live with it. The only possibilities that meight work is plastic welding or a procedure where you melt metal clamps into the plastic material. But I have not tried this., because then you have to open the outside (paintwork side) of the crack to fill it and then you have to respray the whole wing.

Regards
Michael
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by ChrisS » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 16:28

Dank u Michael. Actually, I don't have any visible crack in the area of the door button. It's just that the panel stands slightly above the button and I can see that the top mounting of the panel is detached. The most annoying part is that the edge of the panel vibrates on rough English roads and it's quite close to my left ear!
Best wishes, Chris

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Stoertie
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Stoertie » Thu 16 Jun, 2016 06:32

Hi Chris,

are you sure, that the noise comes from the edge of the wing? It's very stable and there is no hard material it can have contact with. There are a lot of possibilities for strange noises. Last week I surched a creaking noise at a passengers door, for more then 2 days.

When do you have the noises? (Window open or closed door open or closed, roof open or closed)

Did I understand right, that you have no screw at top mounting point above the door lock? If there is a gap between chassis and the fixing eyelet you can use a rubber washer to keep the distance while screwing that point. ;)

Best regards
Michael
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by ChrisS » Fri 17 Jun, 2016 17:36

I have the screw which is in place, but the fixing eyelet has broken away from the panel. Actually, I don't know if it's the panel that is squeaking. I just made the assumption!

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Gazza » Fri 17 Jun, 2016 22:50

I have successfully used automotive panel adhesive to fix the rear bracket on the sill panel.

Quite a few modern vehicles have their panels bonded on now.
Gazza

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Pat Slade
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Pat Slade » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 09:49

Chris,

I have used the reinforcing plates for the rear wing top mounts but the "experts" do not all agree that this is the best way to go!
The problem is a fundamental design issue.
When the door is closed it pushes up against the rear wing before dropping fractionally into the locked position. There is a rubber insert in the top mount but it is easy to understand that holding the top of the rear wing securely with bolt and rubber will over time stress the plastic and start a crack whether it be just in the wing fixing or the external wing surface. So the reinforcements ,if they are tight, could increase the plastic stress and move it to the main wing surface and present a cosmetic crack.
Several of our Z1 colleagues fact either remove the bolt completely, or use a longer one with thicker rubber washers to raise the rear wing, or give it room to flex upwards, and minimise force on the wing from the rising door.
It may also be possible to reduce the door pressure on the wing by "setting " the front of the rear wing pointing slightly out from the door by adjusting the rear wing bolt that hides behind the door brushes.
I hope this is reasonably clear, and I don't think there is a perfect solution. If anyone knows of one please add your two penneth. Our plastics are getting more brittle with age. Just like us really!!

Pat

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Stoertie
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Stoertie » Mon 20 Jun, 2016 16:54

Pat Slade wrote:Chris,

I have used the reinforcing plates for the rear wing top mounts but the "experts" do not all agree that this is the best way to go!
The problem is a fundamental design issue.
...

Pat

Hi Pat,

you are total right. at this point it makes no sense to fix some additional material to the inside because the black rubber part at the door is pressing from the inside to that point of the rear wing. (More material = more pressure = :head: )
My cars also have the small crack and as you wrote the best way is to move the wing more to the outside. Two or three millimeters already have a big effect.

The rear wing problem is not comparable with the front wing problem. At the front wing it works very good to fix the glass fibre reinforced stripes/plates to the area of the eyelets for the screws. I do it so since 12 or 14 years and I have not heared, that one of the wings gets new cracks or that the old cracks becomes longer. :wink:

Regards
Michael
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by TJS » Tue 21 Jun, 2016 09:50

New front wings are manufactured by Delta Engineered Plastics in the US. If you send them an email they might divulge the type of plastic used.

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Stoertie » Tue 21 Jun, 2016 11:18

TJS wrote:New front wings are manufactured by Delta Engineered Plastics in the US. If you send them an email they might divulge the type of plastic used.

Hi TJS,

yes they can tell you what kind of plastic they use now... but are you sure that they use the same type as it was used 27 years ago? :shock:

regards
Michael
Men of steel driving cars of plastic! :-D

Sorry, for my poor english... schooltime is already a few years ago, but I try to do my very best! :-D

If you like, please visit Z1-Nordlichter / Leather Care / Roadster-Fashion.de

I believe I can fly... *lalala* Image

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by TJS » Tue 21 Jun, 2016 15:44

Hi Michael.

Unfortunately, in the interests of "Research and Development", I have to advise that your front wing reinforcement strips failed and the centre hole of my wing split to the extent of 10 cms. However, it is only fair to point out that the damage occurred when a young lady decided to pose (uninvited!) for a photograph while sitting on the left front wing of the Z1 while it was parked outside a restaurant. So ... the car maintenance fund is now £650 lighter due to a new replacement wing and paint.

For those who may need new wings BMW have plenty in stock and the replacement has a 10/2013 date stamp. You will need to spend 30 minutes with a stanley knife and file gently removing "flash" from the edges of the moulding, especially on the wheel arch, before painting plus cut a hole for the side indicator; UK only.

Quick question. The inner face of the wing has a layer of low friction tape where the door meets the wing. Is this standard?

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Stoertie » Tue 21 Jun, 2016 16:24

Hi TJS,

OK... a 0.5mm stripe fixed with adhesive it not able to make a tank out of plastic car! :D :D :D

Yes the tape ist standard... Did I understand right, that the new wings have such a tape when it comes from the dealer? - That would be really perfect!
This tape is for minimize the friction between the flocked rubber gasket and the wing when the door goes up, also it prevents that the gasket freeze to the wing in winter and it minimize (quiiiieck-)noises when the door is closing. Such a stripe should be also installed at the rear wing (normal)

regards
Michael
Men of steel driving cars of plastic! :-D

Sorry, for my poor english... schooltime is already a few years ago, but I try to do my very best! :-D

If you like, please visit Z1-Nordlichter / Leather Care / Roadster-Fashion.de

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TJS
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by TJS » Tue 21 Jun, 2016 18:32

Michael.

Your reinforcing strip did its job and remained intact, it was just too much pressure on top of the wing. The tape, see below, is not provided with the wing so I will need to track some down on the internet. The wings are supplied in grey primer but without the vertical rubber seal at the rear, the seal from the old wing can be reused. The paint shop have the BMW colour code and will check the paint mix against the old wing, they are also pretty confident the old wing could be repaired using stitches and plastic welding. I will keep it as spare.

The paint shop highlighted the plastic code which is shown as "PC - PCB" on both the old and new wings. The old wing had a date code of 11/1989.

While the wing was off I finally got around to aligning the three panel layers, under tray, wing liner and side panel, and inserted and tightened the correct screw bolt plus I replaced the rubber pads between the chassis and the wing.

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Stoertie » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 06:49

TJS wrote: ...
The tape, see below, is not provided with the wing so I will need to track some down on the internet.
...

Hi TJS,

some years ago I git the information, that the tape is a thin PTFE-tape.

regards
Michael
Men of steel driving cars of plastic! :-D

Sorry, for my poor english... schooltime is already a few years ago, but I try to do my very best! :-D

If you like, please visit Z1-Nordlichter / Leather Care / Roadster-Fashion.de

I believe I can fly... *lalala* Image

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by FinerZ1 » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 10:50

Hi Tony

I'm finally replacing the passenger side of my car after various cracks in 3 separate panels - could you let me know which paint shop you are using as I think you're fairly near to me in Cambridge.

Cheers

Paul

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by TJS » Wed 22 Jun, 2016 16:58

Hi Paul.

After a few enquiries and recommendations I opted for Autowerx in Milton Keynes. I visited the workshop and chatted through the situation. The workshop was full of classic cars, mainly classic Porsche and they were just finishing a small repair to a metallic black Ferrari 458. Quite a young team but they knew of the need to add plasticers to the paint for flexibility on the Z1 panels. They were confident the crack could be repaired however all the fixing holes and one of the mounting forks was split and it would need to be repainted in any event plus a new wing wasn't as expensive as I had anticipated.

The cost to cut a hole and swap the side repeater and paint the new wing (Dream Black Metallic) off the car was £120. I removed the old wing and will refit the new one. It should be ready at the end of the week at which point I should, hopefully, be able to give a personal recommendation

http://autowerxmk.co.uk

Lancaster BMW in MK supplied the new wing (shipped from Germany against a £200 deposit) and without prompting offered a 10% discount if I was a BMW Car Club member, if you are not a member join and you will be in profit !

Michael, thanks for the info on the tape which has been ordered via flea bay and should arrive on Friday "UHMW Self Lubrication Anti Friction Non Squeak Tape" ... p.s whats the English translation of "quiiiieck"

Regards

TJS

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Stoertie
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Stoertie » Thu 23 Jun, 2016 07:09

TJS wrote:... p.s whats the English translation of "quiiiieck"

:D :D :D
Men of steel driving cars of plastic! :-D

Sorry, for my poor english... schooltime is already a few years ago, but I try to do my very best! :-D

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by felix » Sat 25 Jun, 2016 09:08

Will be curious how the colour match works out - black and metallic is a challenge.

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Green Genie » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 21:52

TJS wrote:
The cost to cut a hole and swap the side repeater and paint the new wing (Dream Black Metallic) off the car was £120. I removed the old wing and will refit the new one. It should be ready at the end of the week at which point I should, hopefully, be able to give a personal recommendation

That sounds a good price Tony, be interested to see the result, as you know I need to replace a wing. Are you at Silverstone Classic in July with the car?

Do the adjacent panels need to be blown in to match?
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Cabrioot » Mon 27 Jun, 2016 22:22

Very intresting.
Cant find the right solucion here in Holland.
Crack in right front wing and one mounting hole is broken .
New panel is expensive so look fore repair.
Migh come to UK fore repair.
£ is much cheaper now for us :lol:

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by TJS » Fri 01 Jul, 2016 10:36

Felix, Keith

The plan was to mix the paint as per the BMW "Dream BlacK" colour code and test it on the old wing. Result ? close, very close, but no cigar. Plan B was then put into place which was to send the damaged wing off to a specialist paint supplier to be analysed with a spectrophotometer, the paint is bespoke to the individual panel which we know matched the adjoining panels.

The classic Porsche connection with Autowerx was explained by discrete the industrial unit two doors away, a man cave full of 356, 912 and early 911. The guys do all the body restoration, repairs and paint for classic Porsche specialist Export 56. http://www.export56.com

I hope to be at the Silverstone Classic on the Friday as a spectator. Unfortunately, I have commitments at the Gamefair and Old Warden on the Saturday and Sunday (subject to the weather!)

Regards

TJS

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by felix » Fri 01 Jul, 2016 11:55

Curious how they get on matching the colour. I'm trying to get a colour match on a guards red 88 Porsche - paint technology and environmental regulations have changed a lot in the ensuing 28 years so a match is proving to be elusive so far. My preferred shop's paint supplier is unable/unwilling to do a spectral analysis of the existing paint so matching could be very much a trial and error process of mixing the base ingredients and spraying test cards till there's a match. And I have been been warned that what matches in daylight may not match under artificial light and vice versa.

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by ChrisS » Tue 05 Jul, 2016 16:31

felix wrote:Curious how they get on matching the colour. I'm trying to get a colour match on a guards red 88 Porsche - paint technology and environmental regulations have changed a lot in the ensuing 28 years so a match is proving to be elusive so far. My preferred shop's paint supplier is unable/unwilling to do a spectral analysis of the existing paint so matching could be very much a trial and error process of mixing the base ingredients and spraying test cards till there's a match. And I have been been warned that what matches in daylight may not match under artificial light and vice versa.
Strange how metallic used to pose such a problem in colour matching. Now it seems to be solid colours.
The repainting process isn't the same as that used during manufacture, so the dye components may differ. Also, after a few years, the paint may have faded from its original hue. I know bright reds are particularly challenging in this respect. Metamerism is the phenomenon of colour change under different lighting conditions caused by formulating a colour that matches perfectly under standard daylight conditions but may be made up from a different recipe of dye components and pigments that individually react to artificial light in different ways. The same phenomenon affects matching buttons and thread to clothing fabrics and a neighbour had to put 'invisible' dyes into meat products to ensure they still looked palatable in chillers that didn't have standard daylight lighting!

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by TJS » Tue 26 Jul, 2016 12:06

Hi Felix,

A guards red Porsche needing paint .... is this your car ?


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252470468076? ... rmvSB=true

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by felix » Tue 26 Jul, 2016 14:52

Ha ha! While that car is v close to where I live mine has no water content except for the windscreen washer bottle.

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Green Genie » Thu 25 May, 2017 12:49

TJS Wrote:
Michael, thanks for the info on the tape which has been ordered via flea bay and should arrive on Friday "UHMW Self Lubrication Anti Friction Non Squeak Tape" ... p.s whats the English translation of "quiiiieck"
Tony, I'm looking to go down the route of a new front wing. Could you provide the link for the eBay seller for this tape you used,as the pics you posted are no longer showing.

Many thanks in advance.
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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by TJS » Fri 26 May, 2017 20:07

Hi Keith

See attached link; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UHMW-Self-Lub ... SwuYVWpjjm

bear in mind the price is per metre

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Re: Plastic types for body panels

Post by Green Genie » Sat 27 May, 2017 19:00

Thanks Tony
I'm going to order 2 metres which should be more than enough for this wing, and any (hopefully not) future needs.
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