Sump replacement!

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Pat Slade
Joined: Wed 31 Mar, 2004 18:12
Posts: 262

  Z1 roadster
Location: Barnet

Sump replacement!

Post by Pat Slade » Sat 21 May, 2016 18:41

We have just returned from France where we joined members of the French 3 Series E21/E30 club on a tour in the Pyrenees.
It was an excellent tour, great fun, and it was good to have four UK cars in the event.
On the second morning at speed on a twisty road I hit a rock and the result did not appear until 2 days later when I saw a pool oil beneath the car after an overnight stop. My stupidity appears to have cracked the sump, so we returned to the uk without the car.
I do not trust many people with my car so it is being repatriated rather than repaired in France.
My question for the forum is do any of you know whether the sump can be removed without lifting the engine and/or dropping the front suspension/steering?
Another unusual thing I noticed from the parts list is there appears to be no gasket between the sump and the block. Is this correct?
Any input much appreciated by this total muppet!

Pat

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Southernboy
Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 13:39
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: Johannesburg

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by Southernboy » Sat 21 May, 2016 21:26

Sorry to hear about your accident - read this article...seems you're in for some work unfortunately....and there is a gasket - it's a very thin paper type gasket.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showt ... ng-oil-pan

And this article....

http://www.pelicanbbs.com/BMW/techartic ... Gasket.htm
"Normal is overrated"
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TJS
Joined: Mon 12 Sep, 2005 20:05
Posts: 374

  Z1 roadster
Location: Bucks.

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by TJS » Sun 22 May, 2016 10:35

Pat, sorry to hear your news, it's easily done. I dropped off the top of a hidden nearside drain in Spain at low speed, a nasty sounding bang and a scuffed under tray.

Having crawled underneath my car with the workshop manual in hand I am afraid to say it seems the front suspension unit needs to be dropped to get access to the sump, or the engine out. The former looks the easier option. The bottom picture in the attached link will give you an idea of the mechanical layout. No gasket is showing on RealOem but all will be revealed in due course. The casting looks to be alloy and, depending on the extent of the damage, could be repaired by specialist welding inside and out; for example.. http://www.allmetalweldingservices.co.u ... pairs.html

http://www.bmwz1.co.uk/z1const.htm

TJS

sfh3l
Joined: Fri 02 Sep, 2005 17:07
Posts: 552

  Z1 roadster
Location: Buckingham

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by sfh3l » Sun 22 May, 2016 17:07

Hi Pat,

It was a pleasure to spend some time with you and Sneezy over the weekend and I am sorry that the sump did indeed end up being damaged.

I'm not 100% sure about the Z1/E30, but struggled greatly replacing the sump gasket on my 3.0csl a few weeks ago (only to damage it while fitting I fear and still to have a small leak :-( ) On that car it is just about possible to do in situ, but is an absolute bugger of a job and the Z1 is generally tighter and more confined, so I would expect it not to be fun at all. I'd be very surprised if there isn't a gasket between the (cast) block and the alloy sump pan.

Realoem shows the sump as being unique to the Z1, which does surprise me, as I had a feeling that it was common with either 325ix or that car and one or two E34's, but you have to believe what you read. Given that, and its hefty price tag, I'd suggest sending the car to someone like TJS's guy in Duxford to get the sump removed and then get it repaired. Unless it is smashed to pieces, which cannot be the case as it would have lunched all the oil onto the road immediately, it will weld and be as good as new. My hunch though is that this is a job for someone else, as it would test my love for the zettie just a little too far.

Good luck and keep us posted on progress.
Best regards,

Sam Lever.

Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Austin 7 Special - Rolls 20 - '72 911 - '95 318is
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
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Green Genie
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Joined: Thu 01 May, 2008 18:29
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  Z1 roadster
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by Green Genie » Sun 22 May, 2016 19:34

Hi Pat

So sorry to hear of this news, I was gutted to hear that your car sustained this damage as I know you have had the Z1 for a very long time, more than any other member on the forum if I am not mistaken, and you must be very attached to it.

I am sorry I cant lend any expertise in the spannering department and as Sam is suggesting TJS's guy in Duxford could be a starting point. However, if you are thinking of doing any of this work at home (unlikely) and need a spare pair of hands to hold things whilst you are undoing stuff, make tea, fetch and go let me know, I'm not far from you after all.

Let's hope all goes well and the little car comes back as good as new.
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F.Brossaud
Joined: Mon 17 Nov, 2003 16:43
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Re: Sump replacement!

Post by F.Brossaud » Mon 23 May, 2016 20:15

Hello Pat,

I am sorry to hear that. I think it was wise to transfer your car to UK and not leave it alone in this wild country. I would do the same. I am always very nervous when someone else put hands on my car.

I have asked my friend Emmanuel (he drove the black 325is and also own a Z1) if he ever did this type of repair in the past.
Having spent some time under my car last summer, my feeling would be that lifting the engine could be rather difficult due to transaxle tube. I would rather investigate to lower the front suspension.

a1z1
Joined: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 21:43
Posts: 132

  Z1 roadster
Location: Newark

Sump replacement!

Post by a1z1 » Tue 24 May, 2016 10:05

Hi Pat
Sorry to hear about your sump. ☹️The sump is unique to the Z1. Although based on the 325ix ,it is not the same as the 325ix which had a drive shaft passing though it.

While I have a car on the ramp I have looked and replacement will involve supporting the engine from above and lowering the cross member.

If repair is not possible or if you prefer to replace.
I have another sump. I will need to check the condition of it.

Regards
Ivor


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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F.Brossaud
Joined: Mon 17 Nov, 2003 16:43
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  Z1 roadster
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Re: Sump replacement!

Post by F.Brossaud » Tue 24 May, 2016 11:58

a1z1 wrote: ... replacement will involve supporting the engine from above and lowering the cross member.
Hello Pat,

Emmanuel is suggesting exactly the same, to hold the engine, and lower the front subframe.
This part is unique to Z1 and welding properly done is reliable.

sfh3l
Joined: Fri 02 Sep, 2005 17:07
Posts: 552

  Z1 roadster
Location: Buckingham

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by sfh3l » Tue 24 May, 2016 13:06

All that makes sense.

If you need to borrow an engine hoits Pat, I have one that is not (thankfully) in current use, so could be used to hold up the engine for whatever time it takes to effect the repairs........
Best regards,

Sam Lever.

Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Austin 7 Special - Rolls 20 - '72 911 - '95 318is
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog

felix
Joined: Sat 02 Jul, 2005 17:25
Posts: 529

  Z1 roadster

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by felix » Wed 25 May, 2016 08:14

Pat, sorry to hear of your sump woes. I have a spare sump if yours is deemed unrepairable. I think it's under the bed in the spare room, as one does with spares. :)

Pat Slade
Joined: Wed 31 Mar, 2004 18:12
Posts: 262

  Z1 roadster
Location: Barnet

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by Pat Slade » Thu 26 May, 2016 20:22

Hi All,

Many thanks for your interest and suggestions.
I rang the insurance company yesterday and they told me the car was expected back with us on Friday 3rd June.
Imagine my surprise this afternoon (26th May) when I returned from a shopping trip to see a large white closed lorry outside my house! The recovery company CMG had done exceedingly well in spite of fuel limitations with the French strikes and some customs interest in our car. Super to get it back so soon but better communication would have prepared us for the early arrival.
Have washed all the Pyrenees dust and French bugs off the car, which is bodily unmarked.
Oil was still leaking from the engine whilst it was in transport (more than a week after the rock incident). Hoping to take the under trays off this weekend and find the damage.
I will of course report findings, and maybe post a photo, but please be patient, I am away sailing for most of next week. My retirement is far too busy!
Cheers

Pat

sfh3l
Joined: Fri 02 Sep, 2005 17:07
Posts: 552

  Z1 roadster
Location: Buckingham

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by sfh3l » Fri 27 May, 2016 08:34

Good to have it back Pat, I am sure.

I recall the rock very clearly and I think it is actually very lucky that there is no body damage. It must have squeezed under the nose cone and chin strip with fractions of an inch to spare and that bodes well for the undertray too. It is still surprising that, having missed all of the various bits of plastic it managed to hit the metal sump, but perhaps by that time you'd put your brakes on and the front of the car had dipped a little? Very peculiar........

The main thing is that the Z1 is back home now and you can begin to discover the extent of what needs doing.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Best regards,

Sam Lever.

Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Austin 7 Special - Rolls 20 - '72 911 - '95 318is
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog

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Jet
Joined: Fri 14 Nov, 2003 16:24
Posts: 2264

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Re: Sump replacement!

Post by Jet » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:52

a1z1 wrote:Hi Pat
Sorry to hear about your sump. ☹️The sump is unique to the Z1. Although based on the 325ix ,it is not the same as the 325ix which had a drive shaft passing though it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Spot on, the sump mounting points are same, but different shapes, to accommodate 4WD, shaft crosses at different sections.

Good luck Pat.

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TJS
Joined: Mon 12 Sep, 2005 20:05
Posts: 374

  Z1 roadster
Location: Bucks.

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by TJS » Fri 27 May, 2016 12:18

Pat, Good to hear the car is home.

If the damage is at the rear of the sump it may be possible to repair the damage with the sump in situ if the residual oil is drained and the filler cap and dip stick remove to act as vents. Fingers crossed.

Enjoy the sailing

Regards

TJS

sfh3l
Joined: Fri 02 Sep, 2005 17:07
Posts: 552

  Z1 roadster
Location: Buckingham

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by sfh3l » Sat 28 May, 2016 07:33

Oooh er Toni - that sounds a little ambitious! I am no welder, but I do know how well engine oil burns. I'd want to see the repair sorted from both sides and ground off flush again if it were me. Can you imaging welding a crankshaft counterweight to the sump and then trying to start the car :shock:
Best regards,

Sam Lever.

Anyone who says money isn't everything hasn't found the right classic car yet.
Z1 - 3.0csl - 987 Boxster - Austin 7 Special - Rolls 20 - '72 911 - '95 318is
Black Sport Evo M3 & SG M3 CSL - now someone else's pleasure
Blue 2800cs - now someone else's pain
Old cars - the original "Not for Profit" organisation
Independent Financial Adviser in Buckingham
My Financial Blog

siwilson
Joined: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 10:54
Posts: 783

  M roadster S54
Location: Horley

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by siwilson » Sat 28 May, 2016 08:05

Seriously, don't let anyone try to weld with that in place. Many years ago I watched the oil ignite on a rover V8 while someone was trying something similar. Not a place to be.
2001 M roadster S54 Laguna Seca Blue

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TJS
Joined: Mon 12 Sep, 2005 20:05
Posts: 374

  Z1 roadster
Location: Bucks.

Re: Sump replacement!

Post by TJS » Sat 28 May, 2016 09:14

I was speaking to a fabrications specialist yesterday and the sump will need to come off the car and very carefully cleaned before welding. The residual oil in the crack will need to be removed otherwise the weld will be contaminated.

Many years ago I watched (from a safe distance) the sump of a Fordson Major being welded in place, there was an awful lot of smoke, but it ran for another 20 years.

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