Scratches in vinyl rear window
Scratches in vinyl rear window
I have a reasonably clear rear window but wanted to get out the nagging scratches and swirl marks.
Doing an exhaustive search I came up with the two most recommeded products: Renovo and Novous #3 & #2.
While these products work wonders on superficial discolor and scratches in hard plastic (polycarbonate light lenses), they do squat on soft plastic - even when supported with a hard material from the other side.
I just posted this to save others wasted time.
My next step is to move onto the most recommended fillers, namely: 3M IHG and Plexus. I'll update on the results........
Doing an exhaustive search I came up with the two most recommeded products: Renovo and Novous #3 & #2.
While these products work wonders on superficial discolor and scratches in hard plastic (polycarbonate light lenses), they do squat on soft plastic - even when supported with a hard material from the other side.
I just posted this to save others wasted time.
My next step is to move onto the most recommended fillers, namely: 3M IHG and Plexus. I'll update on the results........
I just tested the Meguiar's PlastX.
Any superficial scumming and oxidation has been removed and the window is clear and full of luster - but nothing so far is impactiing the fine skate/swirl marks. I have no problem during the day but at night the glare from the cars from behind is annoying.
After all the effort... my recommended materials for the rear window are polish with PlastX and maintain with Plexus.
(but there is not much between the three polishes tested)
Any superficial scumming and oxidation has been removed and the window is clear and full of luster - but nothing so far is impactiing the fine skate/swirl marks. I have no problem during the day but at night the glare from the cars from behind is annoying.
After all the effort... my recommended materials for the rear window are polish with PlastX and maintain with Plexus.
(but there is not much between the three polishes tested)
- Justin Time
- Joined: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 20:34
- Posts: 2183
- Location: Kent
I used a fluffy bath sheet, others have used foam pipe insulation. But these are mainly to stop the crease line. I wouldn't recommend the BMW cloth.Justin Time wrote:to reduce the marks made in future, there are soft towels available that protect the window when you fold the hood down.
Other than that, a good bit of elbow grease and BMW rear window "toothpaste" gets it looking like new.
I also found the BMW toothpaste to be one of the best products. The best (but largely impractical) way to clean it was to take the window out. My son and I became quite adept at replacing the screen. 45 minutes was the record!!
Pingu
Perhaps my expectations are too high.
Just to clarify;
If when standing right above the window, one looks at the direct reflection of the sun off the rear window - do you see any swirl marks?
I can't get rid of any - if anything I'm adding more - whether I use a cotton detailing cloth or a MF.
(I know - you many not have any sun for 3 more months...)
Just to clarify;
If when standing right above the window, one looks at the direct reflection of the sun off the rear window - do you see any swirl marks?
I can't get rid of any - if anything I'm adding more - whether I use a cotton detailing cloth or a MF.
(I know - you many not have any sun for 3 more months...)
Mich,
The swirl marks must be only a few microinches deep - and I agree that the vinyl needs to be removed to the level of the bottom of the swirls.
Isn't that the idea of any mild abrasive polishing? that you remove a thin layer to polish out the fine scratches.
What I don't understand is why I can't 'remove' any material and IMO I'm even making it worse. All the materials I mentioned have mild abrasives and it should work - just like those same materials work when applying to marred plastic headlights. (btw supporting the vinyl from the inside with a piece of wood did not help either).
I think I'm just as pissed off at making it worse as frustrated at not understanding what is going on.
The swirl marks must be only a few microinches deep - and I agree that the vinyl needs to be removed to the level of the bottom of the swirls.
Isn't that the idea of any mild abrasive polishing? that you remove a thin layer to polish out the fine scratches.
What I don't understand is why I can't 'remove' any material and IMO I'm even making it worse. All the materials I mentioned have mild abrasives and it should work - just like those same materials work when applying to marred plastic headlights. (btw supporting the vinyl from the inside with a piece of wood did not help either).
I think I'm just as pissed off at making it worse as frustrated at not understanding what is going on.
Thanks - they have a tube locally in stock.
I've eliminated the cause as being a poor applicator - so only have left is whether the abrasive is too mild - or whether my non OEM plastic window is the problem.
I think it's the former as one can polish metal with hard alumina abrasives.
I will start with the BMW paste and prgress to metal polish before I give up. I think all the stuff I tested it too mild and is only good for surface haze and contamination. ( I suspect I need the type of stuff that is used to buff out swirl marks on the car body - but I fear that I may do irreversible damage and turn the plastic milky)
I've eliminated the cause as being a poor applicator - so only have left is whether the abrasive is too mild - or whether my non OEM plastic window is the problem.
I think it's the former as one can polish metal with hard alumina abrasives.
I will start with the BMW paste and prgress to metal polish before I give up. I think all the stuff I tested it too mild and is only good for surface haze and contamination. ( I suspect I need the type of stuff that is used to buff out swirl marks on the car body - but I fear that I may do irreversible damage and turn the plastic milky)
I'll pass on the metal polish cuz I'm afraid of impact of the solvents on the vinyl. Just OEM paste left.
But I now am thinking that the vinyl is too soft to be able to polish out swirl marks. As we discussed, to polish out a scratch you need to remove a layer until the bottom of the scratch - and while trying there is plastic deformation of the vinyl avoiding the abrasion- while in doing so any small dust will compound the problem.
On the other hand the mild abrasive pastes- PlastX, novus or renovo - do wonders on the surface films etc.
But I now am thinking that the vinyl is too soft to be able to polish out swirl marks. As we discussed, to polish out a scratch you need to remove a layer until the bottom of the scratch - and while trying there is plastic deformation of the vinyl avoiding the abrasion- while in doing so any small dust will compound the problem.
On the other hand the mild abrasive pastes- PlastX, novus or renovo - do wonders on the surface films etc.
-
- Z Register member
- Joined: Sat 30 Jul, 2005 19:34
- Posts: 4054
- Location: Belfast
PlastX is a great product.
The BMW toothpaste has always sufficed for me though.
The BMW toothpaste has always sufficed for me though.
BMW Z3, the only way to build a true roadster
- The most powerful letter in the world.
- The most powerful letter in the world.
Cloz wrote:There is something that will never change is my love for Z3
smartypants wrote:Conor?
With an M??
The World's gone mad
smartypants wrote:The Z3 rear is a great thing to behold
I just tested the OEMpaste=Autosol paste.
While this seemed to be the most abrasive - it also did not impact the swirls. The window is clear and with good luster - but there are still swirls and still get glare from headlights behind me.
Here are links to pictures: (the picture trying to show swirls is not great)
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... 08/car.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... CF1120.jpg
While this seemed to be the most abrasive - it also did not impact the swirls. The window is clear and with good luster - but there are still swirls and still get glare from headlights behind me.
Here are links to pictures: (the picture trying to show swirls is not great)
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... 08/car.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... CF1120.jpg
- cowboybebop
- Joined: Sat 12 May, 2007 21:54
- Posts: 366
- Location: Derby
Soory for being anal. I'll explain.
I was hoping that I'd be able to get rid of the swirl marks (similar to those seen in clearcoat) by using the various polishes recommended.
They give a clear "near new" window but the misroscratches left leave you with a glare from headlights at night. (if you have mega scratches for sure they have no impact - they only deal with a very thin surface damage/haze/oxidation etc)
Here is a slightly better picture. Ignore the rough sparkling surface (which is the texture of the black leather surface I put inside for focus purposes) and focus on the circular scratches around the bright reflection of the flash. I have now found that they are impossible to remedy - one must prevent them by careful care.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... lastic.jpg
I was hoping that I'd be able to get rid of the swirl marks (similar to those seen in clearcoat) by using the various polishes recommended.
They give a clear "near new" window but the misroscratches left leave you with a glare from headlights at night. (if you have mega scratches for sure they have no impact - they only deal with a very thin surface damage/haze/oxidation etc)
Here is a slightly better picture. Ignore the rough sparkling surface (which is the texture of the black leather surface I put inside for focus purposes) and focus on the circular scratches around the bright reflection of the flash. I have now found that they are impossible to remedy - one must prevent them by careful care.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... lastic.jpg
probably a little late with this but found some info on here.
http://www.meguiars.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1643
seems to back up what you have said BonBon.
http://www.meguiars.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1643
seems to back up what you have said BonBon.
this seems more like the real deal, i've only heard good things about mothers products, may go and get some of this at the weekend and give it a try. BTW this supplier is very good, have used them before.
http://www.performancemotorcare.com/aca ... ishes.html
http://www.performancemotorcare.com/aca ... ishes.html
screen crease & scratches
This is what I do to avoid scratches & creases in the screen.
I thought it would be of interest.
Pipe insulation inside a pillow case. Cheap & effective.
I lower the roof half way and put it in the crease. The pillow case gets "pulled-in" and thus the screen does not need to be spotless every time I put the roof down - usually 3 times a day. (but I need to was the pillow case once and a while )
I thought it would be of interest.
Pipe insulation inside a pillow case. Cheap & effective.
I lower the roof half way and put it in the crease. The pillow case gets "pulled-in" and thus the screen does not need to be spotless every time I put the roof down - usually 3 times a day. (but I need to was the pillow case once and a while )
Last edited by BonBon on Mon 09 Mar, 2015 13:32, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Z Register member
- Joined: Sat 30 Jul, 2005 19:34
- Posts: 4054
- Location: Belfast
Worth while having this BMW window blanket. I have one. Highly recommended.
C
C
BMW Z3, the only way to build a true roadster
- The most powerful letter in the world.
- The most powerful letter in the world.
Cloz wrote:There is something that will never change is my love for Z3
smartypants wrote:Conor?
With an M??
The World's gone mad
smartypants wrote:The Z3 rear is a great thing to behold
Follow up
Update - I've been looking after the rear window with great care.... it's been maintained in great condition with BMW toothpaste, Plexus spray and by never opening without folding-in a protective cover.
But....my screen was an aftermarket product fitted by the previous owner (together with a new roof without a zip ). It is now reaching 3 years old and I am noticing that the plastic, despite being clear with some swirl marks, is developing a very fine ripple on the surface - the closest I can described in a fine orange peel effect.
There is no real problem - just cars in the rear view appear a tad out of focus - like I'm wearing glasses with the wrong prescription.
I just wanted to encourage people forking out for a new screen to get the best possible product - as per the old adage: "You get what you paid for"
But....my screen was an aftermarket product fitted by the previous owner (together with a new roof without a zip ). It is now reaching 3 years old and I am noticing that the plastic, despite being clear with some swirl marks, is developing a very fine ripple on the surface - the closest I can described in a fine orange peel effect.
There is no real problem - just cars in the rear view appear a tad out of focus - like I'm wearing glasses with the wrong prescription.
I just wanted to encourage people forking out for a new screen to get the best possible product - as per the old adage: "You get what you paid for"
- diddykong157
- Joined: Sun 17 Jan, 2010 11:44
- Posts: 54
- Location: London
Took the plunge.........and it worked
For the last 2 years I've been protecting my aftermarket screen with BMW "toothpaste" and Plexus protective coating - which worked fine.
It seems (as per my post in March) that the UV is getting the best of the screen. It is not yellowing like classic vinyl aging - rather the surface became a bit blurry - had a somewhat orange peel finish with some microscopic pits that resembled the moon's surface.
The previous owner put in an aftermarket screen with no zip - so saving the screen means saving a big expense.
Nothing worked......Renovo, PlastX, Nouvus, BMW paste, Hindsight.
I finally bit the bullet and went for the "headlight polishing" procedure.
Wet and dry 2000, followed by 2500 and then buff with BMW paste. It made a big difference. Got rid of much of the blurriness - say 2/3 of the way there. I did it manually - if I used a buffer I'm sure it would have got above 90%. (There is a service in UK who buff screens for 40 quid http://www.clean-image.co.uk/valeting_convertible.htm )
To protect it from UV - I'm going to test a bottle of IMAR Strataglass Protective Polish (#302) which is mean to build up a coating with each successive application.
Here is a pic after the left side was polished and the right side was before the 2500.
I just want to clarify that this is only a last resort route when all else fails. Generally, any of the above products should do the job - especially in the UK where the main failure is due to cracking at low temps.
It seems (as per my post in March) that the UV is getting the best of the screen. It is not yellowing like classic vinyl aging - rather the surface became a bit blurry - had a somewhat orange peel finish with some microscopic pits that resembled the moon's surface.
The previous owner put in an aftermarket screen with no zip - so saving the screen means saving a big expense.
Nothing worked......Renovo, PlastX, Nouvus, BMW paste, Hindsight.
I finally bit the bullet and went for the "headlight polishing" procedure.
Wet and dry 2000, followed by 2500 and then buff with BMW paste. It made a big difference. Got rid of much of the blurriness - say 2/3 of the way there. I did it manually - if I used a buffer I'm sure it would have got above 90%. (There is a service in UK who buff screens for 40 quid http://www.clean-image.co.uk/valeting_convertible.htm )
To protect it from UV - I'm going to test a bottle of IMAR Strataglass Protective Polish (#302) which is mean to build up a coating with each successive application.
Here is a pic after the left side was polished and the right side was before the 2500.
I just want to clarify that this is only a last resort route when all else fails. Generally, any of the above products should do the job - especially in the UK where the main failure is due to cracking at low temps.
Last edited by BonBon on Mon 09 Mar, 2015 13:13, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
Because I spent so much time on this -repeating what I did above as perhaps this will benefit others.
After replacing my roof that was vandalized about 18 months ago - again I am finding that the rear screen is has deteriorated to the level that the cars in the rear view mirror look blurry. The problem is NOT surface oxide or scratches that can be addresses by the Autosol 1300 (=BMW paste) - it's rather some type of deterioration of the plastic that makes it look like the moon surface on a mm scale (orange peel) :
from a different angle it looks like blotches:
I think it is UV damage as I keep the car outside in a sunny environment (some people have problems).
Anyway - as discussed in the posts above - all the std stuff is not abrasive enough to get it right.
The solution is to do wet and dry 2000 then 2500 and then the std polishes.
It is scary when it gets opaque from the sandpaper - but it works. Even when clear there are scratches which are hard to remove - but at least the cars are not blurry.
Here you can see the steps on a small area.
After 2000 and 2500
opaque area after protective tape removed
after polishing - see how you can actually read the letters on the paper on the area treated and blurry elsewhere:
Now I just need to find a few hours to do the whole window.
After replacing my roof that was vandalized about 18 months ago - again I am finding that the rear screen is has deteriorated to the level that the cars in the rear view mirror look blurry. The problem is NOT surface oxide or scratches that can be addresses by the Autosol 1300 (=BMW paste) - it's rather some type of deterioration of the plastic that makes it look like the moon surface on a mm scale (orange peel) :
from a different angle it looks like blotches:
I think it is UV damage as I keep the car outside in a sunny environment (some people have problems).
Anyway - as discussed in the posts above - all the std stuff is not abrasive enough to get it right.
The solution is to do wet and dry 2000 then 2500 and then the std polishes.
It is scary when it gets opaque from the sandpaper - but it works. Even when clear there are scratches which are hard to remove - but at least the cars are not blurry.
Here you can see the steps on a small area.
After 2000 and 2500
opaque area after protective tape removed
after polishing - see how you can actually read the letters on the paper on the area treated and blurry elsewhere:
Now I just need to find a few hours to do the whole window.
Last edited by BonBon on Mon 06 Apr, 2015 20:17, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
That's a massive improvement BonBon
- Southernboy
- Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
- Posts: 6437
- Location: Johannesburg
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
I just think it's the absolute best solution I have come across to remove not only the dullness, but to remove fairly deep scratches. A very practical easy DIY task, with photographic supporting evidence for the process of effective restoration. Brilliant !
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
After using 3M's Headlight restoring kit I couldn't believe the difference it made so I thought I'd try the same approach to my hazy/milky/scratched rear window.
My thinking was theyre both clear plastic and the window plastic is softer - so no problem this 3m stuff will work a treat.... 2 hours later I have a nice even milkier/hazier rear window the larger scratches are gone and there is a much more even tone but there are now very fine small scratches covering the entire window.
It seems bon bon has taken the same approach with the wet and dry. I used p1500 and the p3000 finished off with PlastX. I didnt have the balls to use the 400 and 800 grades supplied with the 3M kit..
So do you think I made too big of a jump between the 1500 grade >> 3000?? I see youve used 2000 and then 2500. Does this leave the window micro scratch free?
When I say micro I mean scratches that effect the clarity - I guess up extremly close there will always be minute scratches when using sand paper on plastic
Edit: thinking about it maybe a good swirl remover would have some effect.. ?! they start off quite abrasive and get finer as you polish - which im sure is what PlastX does just on a much finer scale.
My thinking was theyre both clear plastic and the window plastic is softer - so no problem this 3m stuff will work a treat.... 2 hours later I have a nice even milkier/hazier rear window the larger scratches are gone and there is a much more even tone but there are now very fine small scratches covering the entire window.
It seems bon bon has taken the same approach with the wet and dry. I used p1500 and the p3000 finished off with PlastX. I didnt have the balls to use the 400 and 800 grades supplied with the 3M kit..
So do you think I made too big of a jump between the 1500 grade >> 3000?? I see youve used 2000 and then 2500. Does this leave the window micro scratch free?
When I say micro I mean scratches that effect the clarity - I guess up extremly close there will always be minute scratches when using sand paper on plastic
Edit: thinking about it maybe a good swirl remover would have some effect.. ?! they start off quite abrasive and get finer as you polish - which im sure is what PlastX does just on a much finer scale.
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
You were right not to go more coarse than 1500. Now that all the big scratches are removed you just need to polish out the fine scratches - the Autosol paste should work well. It's hard do buff them all out by hand - you may want to do it with a buffer or a hand drill with a wool cover.
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
Ok thanks - tried the autosol which seems like a self degrading abrasive polish - worked to a degree - made slight improvements but still retaining that haze. This was by hand though. I think maybe self degrading polish/swirl remover which would be similar to the Autosol applied with a machine might give better results (fingers crossed)
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
Had a go with the following gear. All the pads are SIAAIR. I've never used these before or the Farecla G3 advanced liquid formula. First shot - I found that while it is much easier to use the hand drill, the result on a large area is inferior to doing it by hand (I could not get rid of the orange peel effect - and can see that manually there is much more fine plastic dust being removed in the water). I suspect that with the equivalent grade of wet & dry paper the pressure applied on a small area with fingers is much higher than that on the 6 inch dia pad with the drill - and I dare press harder with the drill. My gut feeling is that to get the same effect as 1500 grit done manually I'll need 800 with the drill. (back to the store now)
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
Almost there -
As described in the last message - I got both 800 and 1000 SIAAIR wet & dry pads.
In order to do it in steps I decided to start with a manual tool pictured here.
You can see a pic with a small section after the 800 and 1000. Then I did the 1500,2000,3000 & 4000.
Here are pics on the two sections. You can see that most of the orange peel has gone.(You can now read the number 3 on the fan dial)
Not polished:
Fast run through all the wet and dry grades, Farecla G3, and finally Autosol.
I think I will now do it all with the drill. I'm not sure if I need the Farecla G3.
I must note that while I will eliminate all the orange peel - it will increase the swirl marks which I expect will be very difficult or even impossible to eliminate. So only go this way if you really have serious problems with the screen. I'm still not sure if the cause of the orange peel surface was due to sun, sand or hail - but I'm sure it's because I park the car outdoors in extreme environments.
As described in the last message - I got both 800 and 1000 SIAAIR wet & dry pads.
In order to do it in steps I decided to start with a manual tool pictured here.
You can see a pic with a small section after the 800 and 1000. Then I did the 1500,2000,3000 & 4000.
Here are pics on the two sections. You can see that most of the orange peel has gone.(You can now read the number 3 on the fan dial)
Not polished:
Fast run through all the wet and dry grades, Farecla G3, and finally Autosol.
I think I will now do it all with the drill. I'm not sure if I need the Farecla G3.
I must note that while I will eliminate all the orange peel - it will increase the swirl marks which I expect will be very difficult or even impossible to eliminate. So only go this way if you really have serious problems with the screen. I'm still not sure if the cause of the orange peel surface was due to sun, sand or hail - but I'm sure it's because I park the car outdoors in extreme environments.
Last edited by BonBon on Mon 13 Apr, 2015 20:19, edited 1 time in total.
- Southernboy
- Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
- Posts: 6437
- Location: Johannesburg
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
Finish with liquid brass polish and a soft cloth / buff.... it'll take out all the swirl marks.
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
Can you recommend a specific brand of liquid brass polish? Brasso?
(I'm afraid of the solvent)
(I'm afraid of the solvent)
- Southernboy
- Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
- Posts: 6437
- Location: Johannesburg
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
Brasso is best...... and don't be concerned with the solvent...it has no negative effect on the plastic. It's the micro abrasiveness and the very slight solvent effect which does the trick... As you know, if you apply Brasso to metal and allow it to dry, it will leave a fine white powder film on the metal surface...that is the fineness of the abrasive.
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
I guess/assume the particles are smaller than the Autosol=BMW paste.
- Southernboy
- Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
- Posts: 6437
- Location: Johannesburg
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
I wouldn't know, but I do know that using Brasso, it really polishes the plastic to a very high gloss shine with a clear view through the material...
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
The best way to test to to grit between your teeth - like testing a pearl.
-
- Joined: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 10:27
- Posts: 2094
- Location: Daglan, France
Re: Scratches in vinyl rear window
The BMW paste is very good, being simiar to Meguiars Scratch-X, the particles getting smaller as it is used, but I have never heard of any paste which will remove scratch marks - prevention is the only way.
BMW sell a hood blanket, but being made of thick felt it occupies a load of boot space when not in use, which is no use if you use the car for touring with a full boot- in such use it is as useless as the tonnau cover.
When I had a new hood fitted I had my wife make a soft hood blanket, fited with velcro straps, and it works well. I can put the roof up without getting out, and pull the blanket into the car if it rains. It also makes a handy pillow when camping.
The tranverse pocket houses large diameter pipe lagging to prevent the window from creasing as the roof folds. It is in four pieces, so the blanket can be folded for storage. This year I will get her to make a mk.2 version which will cover more of the roof.
BMW sell a hood blanket, but being made of thick felt it occupies a load of boot space when not in use, which is no use if you use the car for touring with a full boot- in such use it is as useless as the tonnau cover.
When I had a new hood fitted I had my wife make a soft hood blanket, fited with velcro straps, and it works well. I can put the roof up without getting out, and pull the blanket into the car if it rains. It also makes a handy pillow when camping.
The tranverse pocket houses large diameter pipe lagging to prevent the window from creasing as the roof folds. It is in four pieces, so the blanket can be folded for storage. This year I will get her to make a mk.2 version which will cover more of the roof.
A Z3 is not just for Christmas - it's for life!