3.0L vs 3.2M

UK forum for general and technical discussion about the Z3 roadster

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LEX77
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: South Wales

3.0L vs 3.2M

Post by LEX77 » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 10:35

Just "throwing this out there".

Been trawling through ad's for a 3.2m Roadster with low miles. Just don't know whether I'm doing the "right" thing.

I've finally got my 3.0 just looking exactly as I want it.

I drive the car everyday, it returns 28-29mpg, and performance is really strong.

Never any mechanical issues (touch wood) and it drives as sweet as a nut. Could do with a louder exhaust tho ;-)

So WHY OH WHY do I still want an M????? ....must be penis envy or sumthin ;-)
Silver Z3 3Litre " gone :-( "

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Z3_TJK
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  M roadster S50

Re: 3.0L vs 3.2M

Post by Z3_TJK » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 10:39

LEX77 wrote: So WHY OH WHY do I still want an M????? ....must be penis envy or sumthin ;-)
I suppose it's psychologically knowing you've got the best model of the car that was made.
Now: Z3M Estoril Blue

pangster
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Re: 3.0L vs 3.2M

Post by pangster » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 11:04

Z3_TJK wrote:
LEX77 wrote: So WHY OH WHY do I still want an M????? ....must be penis envy or sumthin ;-)
I suppose it's psychologically knowing you've got the best model of the car that was made.
fastest yes (without doubt)... best model?.. probably debateable.. don't get me wrong.. I like everything about the Z3M (apart from the rear! LOL!) - but the reason there is a variety of models is due to the fact there is a variety of requirements from buyers.. some people think their ideal model is a 1.9 whereas others wouldn't drive anything less than 3.2M - horses for courses really! :)

LEX77
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: South Wales

Post by LEX77 » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 12:11

Surely if there wasn't any issues with, running costs, everyone would have the most powerfull and fastest model out there????

Only issues (that don't bother me) I can see with having an M are....

Under 20mpg
Group 20 insurance
Parts and service prices
Vanos trouble
Image ;-)


I just don't know....
Am I just tryin to convince myself that I need one. There's more than enough grunt to get into trouble in my current Zed. ;-)

Mine is a 2001 3 Litre
52k, FSH, 3 lights.
Titanium Silver
Black hood
Blue leather (not sport seats)
18" DTM invoit alloys with 9" rear. 225/40 + 255/35
Eibach 30mm springs
Alpine amp (hidden)
Alpine speakers (footwell and tweeters)
Business 6 x CD
Air-con.

What do you reckon its worth?? In todays climate???
Silver Z3 3Litre " gone :-( "

danieltharris
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  Z3 roadster 1.9
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Post by danieltharris » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 12:32

Id stick with the 3.0 and wait until you see some sports seats come up and you would have pretty much my perfect Z3.

Having the M would be great but you know your car well by now and have spent money getting it how you want.

Power and handling wise I don't think theres enough difference to warrant throwing away the time, love and money spent on the 3.0l - keep the 3.0l dude, it is the nuts.

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Gazza
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Post by Gazza » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 12:46

It's called Progression, I did the same coming from the 2.8

The ///M will cost more on a daily basis in the long run but will be worth more than the 3.0

Take yer pick :wink:
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by pangster » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 13:18

LEX77 wrote:Surely if there wasn't any issues with, running costs, everyone would have the most powerfull and fastest model out there?????
I must think differently from most people then! LOL!.. I'm more than happy with my 2.8.. and probably would have been equally happy if I ended up with a 2.2.. I doubt I would be anymore happier in a Z3M (for what I wanted it for).. everyone's different though! And I'm not that interested in the traffic light grand prix or pub talk anymore! :)

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smartypants
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Location: Bracknell

Post by smartypants » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 13:32

2.2 all the way :D

danieltharris
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Post by danieltharris » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 13:34

The M is obviously the best z3 you can get in most ways, but its not as much of a difference between the 3.0 and the M as there is between a 2.7 boxster and the 3.2 boxster-S.

If you get an M try and buy from a member so you have a better idea of the history, you need on as well looked after as your 3.0l!

I have a feeling you would be happy either way, but saying you own an M would be niiiice.

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BonBon
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: 3.0L vs 3.2M

Post by BonBon » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 13:35

Pangster wrote: horses for courses really! :)
I agree. I feel secure by the fact that I can floor my 1.9 w/o the fear of getting a speeding ticket or killing myself.......

.........or perhaps I just don't have any problems with any of my body parts :D

pangster
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  blank

Post by pangster » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 13:41

danieltharris wrote: If you get an M try and buy from a member so you have a better idea of the history, you need on as well looked after as your 3.0l!
Sorry - but that counts for absolutely nothing.. I wouldn't look at a fellow members car any differently than I would look at any private sale. Just because they are a member of a forum/club doesn't mean that it's any less likely that its going to have been abused etc

For example - some members sign up here purely to advertise their cars.. other examples are where cars have gone wrong and the members have knowingly moved them on - even if they were traded in at dealers etc, ultimately they'll end up in someone's ownership and they're going to end up with the headaches some else avoided.

TBH - if you like the Z3M styling then fair enough - but replica's can be and have been built - the 1.9 on PH for example.. so why spend £3-£4k more if you just want the looks?

If you want the performance and are other wise happy with your car then look at power getters i.e. superchargers etc.. benefit is cost differential probably won't be as much, performance will be similar/negligible difference and you already have the car looking how you want it as well as knowing the history etc

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Cloz
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Boucherville

Post by Cloz » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 13:43

I went for my second best choice. (2.8 Montreal blue)
Because ZM don't come with that color :D

Cloz

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Jonttt
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  M roadster S54
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Post by Jonttt » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 14:08

Lex

Marketing companies spend millions of pounds to put you in this delema. we really are a throw away society. I have been as guilty as anyone (and more so than most) of swapping cars far too often in my youth for all the wrong reason. The best car I ever had when I look back was one I kept for 6 years through necessity to save up to buy my first house. It was by no means the best car I have ever owned but it brings back the fondest memories as I had it for so long. There are plenty of great sports cars I owned for a year and changed through ego and I can't even remember driving now (or the money that would be in my bank account!) :head:

Of course people need to change cars but it should be for the right reasons. Those could simply be that the car is not "liked" any more to reliability etc....

Sounds to me by the very fact that you are thinking this way is that you have simply become "bored" with your current car. I can fully understand this and you will have a true head versus heart debate with yourself (head says don't change, heart says do it). At the end of the day so long as you are honest with yourself and are realistic as to the pros and cons then make a decision and don't regret it, life is too short. It is easy for me to say stick with what yo have got, when I would have done the complete opposite years ago :wink:

The only fact is that both are great cars :D (and I'm luvin my ///M :wink: )
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c_w
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Post by c_w » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 14:22

There is no reason NOT to buy the Z3M out of all the Z3 Roadsters other than your budget/how much you're prepared to pay; any other reasons and you're just kidding yourself :lol: Obviously this was much more prevelant when they were newer.

However as you have a 3.0 now, the step up isn't massive, particularly as the 3.0 is a great engine, lightweight, reliable and good power. If you're getting 28mpg from the 3.0 you'll prob see just over 20 with the M; sounds like short trips or fairly hard driving all the time!

IMO, keep the 3.0 and make the jump to the Z4M in a couple of years. That way you get the top model and a new car in one :D
Last edited by c_w on Tue 28 Apr, 2009 14:28, edited 3 times in total.

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pop_sausage
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Post by pop_sausage » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 14:23

a bit of a different perspective, I went from the z4 3.0 to z4 3.2. Whist the z4m is a better all round car than the 3.0l - it's not worth the extra I'm paying/paid over my old 3.0L IMO. Yes the power is amazing, but then the 3.0L was a capable engine as well and offered 90% of usable power as the M does in a real world driving - infact, better low down pull. I was never left thinking I need more when I had it.

Where the M comes to life is the handling and the LSD makes it less twitchy and more exploitable in an amateur's hands - it's how the standard z4s should have been in the first place. Not driven a z3 for years but I imagine the difference is also visible here too between non M and M derivatives.

I paid the same for a 2yo 3.0L in 2005 as I did for a 1yo M in 2008 so that was a major factor for my replacement.

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smartypants
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Post by smartypants » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 14:35

Continuing off tangent, I'd rather have the 3.0si engine in the Z4 than the Z4M.

But I much prefer the styling of the Z4M, and the fact its an ///M

Back to the Z3, and indeed ///M ownership in general - I think owning an ///M is something special, and I wouldn't compare it to the standard range at all, in any way.

Do your sums, if you can afford to run an ///M then go for it. You certainly won't be disappointed, or miss the 3.0.

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pop_sausage
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Post by pop_sausage » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 15:01

The limiting performance factor for most road users is their own ability.

So if you're bored, maybe look at some advanced road lesson from the likes of http://www.cadence.co.uk/ or others that are advertised in the back of EVO etc .

Learn how to exploit what you have now... 8-)

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Alfie
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  M roadster S54
Location: Broadchurch....

Post by Alfie » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 15:41

The only regret I have in moving from a beautiful Topaz Z3 3.0i to RED ///M is simply this:

I didn't keep the 3.0 AS WELL....!

A.
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321bhp
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  Not specified
Location: essex

Post by 321bhp » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 16:03

i just love the shape of the zm better than the z3,in a mature mans world,this is how i see it

1.the z3 is joanna lumley in a suit
2.the zm is joanna lumley in stockings

not must differance but number 2 just looks better :lol: :lol:
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Zim
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Post by Zim » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 16:15

nice dilemma to have, i personally would go for the ///M, i more pay cheque and i will be in the market for one!!

bring it on!! who hoo

/Z

MarkOliver
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Manchester

Post by MarkOliver » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 16:28

I know what you mean Lex, we currently have a well spec’ed 2.8, but can’t help being drawn towards the M’s. I think we will sit tight a while longer and maybe get an M coupe and keep the 2.8 (my wife will never sell it now!)

The only thing that stopped us going for an M in the first place was a German guy that I work with told me that if you plan on keeping the car a long time, M parts can become difficult to get hold of and will definitely command a higher M price tag as the years go by. (I should not of listerned to him and just bought one :head: )

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Althulas
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  M roadster S50

Post by Althulas » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 16:35

When I looked at buying a Z I could have gotten a newer 3.0 but went for the M purely for the looks and the uprated suspesion and engine but knowing I would pay more for my runing cost but I'm still smiling at the pump as I put another £42 worth of Tesco's 99' in though. Saying this though I would have liked the traction control and computer.
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Mr Silver
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i

Post by Mr Silver » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 17:23

Don't quote me but I believe that the Z3 3.0i facelift has the same suspension as the Z3M.

Regards.

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c_w
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  M roadster S50

Post by c_w » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 17:28

I won't quote you on that :P

danieltharris
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  Z3 roadster 1.9
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Post by danieltharris » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 17:29

Hmmm I think we all know what you want to do....and that's go for the M. Why not just say to hell with it and splash out for one!

I bet once you own an M you would never look back actually.

brently
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
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Post by brently » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 17:33

Can't wait to get home and put some stockings on my 3.0L!

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 17:35

brently wrote:Can't wait to get home and put some stockings on my 3.0L!
Don't forget the hat :lol:

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stu
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  Z3 roadster 2.8 supe
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Post by stu » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 17:53

Unlike Alfie, Whiteminks had the balls to get the M as well!

:wink:

Nice dilemma by the way.
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whiteminks
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Location: Lincoln

Post by whiteminks » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 18:23

Thanks Stu, it's nice to be admired for my balls! :D

Seriously I did think about the 3.0 or the ///M but Spokey advised me that I wouldn't really notice enough difference between my 2.2 and the 3.0.

I did opt for the S54 with traction control though.......... not sure if my balls would have been big enough to have the S50 :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Traction control does mean I have driven my ///M in the winter though and it was great when we had lots of snow. :wink:

I love my ///M........... that power is unbelievable and it is great to have my 2.2 as my daily driver too. :wink:
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PhoenixCoupe
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  Z4 coupe 3.0si
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Post by PhoenixCoupe » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 22:54

pop_sausage wrote:a bit of a different perspective, I went from the z4 3.0 to z4 3.2. Whist the z4m is a better all round car than the 3.0l - it's not worth the extra I'm paying/paid over my old 3.0L IMO. Yes the power is amazing, but then the 3.0L was a capable engine as well and offered 90% of usable power as the M does in a real world driving - infact, better low down pull. I was never left thinking I need more when I had it.
Even less between the 3.0si and the Z4M. Unless there's a financial reason to change, it's not really worth it, even with normal power steering and so on.
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Bracey
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
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Post by Bracey » Tue 28 Apr, 2009 23:48

If you're happy with the way your car looks but are unsure whether you need an extra 100bhp or so, ask yourself this... how many times have you been beaten from the lights in a traffic light grandprix?

Sure, the Z3M is half a second or so quicker to 60mph, and probably quicker in gear to. But does this warrant stretching your budget just to have the "top-of-the-range" model?

Thinking about it, I suppose it does and if I could convince myself that I could afford to run, maintain and repair an M, I'd have one!

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Gazza
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Post by Gazza » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 08:24

:D Go for a test drive :D that'll help with the decision :wink:

Before I bought my first Zed I went through the same process. Don't get me wrong, I loved my 2.8 but the ///M is a totally different car.
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Alfie
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Post by Alfie » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 08:29

stu wrote:Unlike Alfie, Whiteminks had the balls to get the M as well!
:wink:
Ah....is THAT where they went?
I always wondered.

:D

A.
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smartypants
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Location: Bracknell

Post by smartypants » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 11:07

PhoenixCoupe wrote:
pop_sausage wrote:a bit of a different perspective, I went from the z4 3.0 to z4 3.2. Whist the z4m is a better all round car than the 3.0l - it's not worth the extra I'm paying/paid over my old 3.0L IMO. Yes the power is amazing, but then the 3.0L was a capable engine as well and offered 90% of usable power as the M does in a real world driving - infact, better low down pull. I was never left thinking I need more when I had it.
Even less between the 3.0si and the Z4M. Unless there's a financial reason to change, it's not really worth it, even with normal power steering and so on.
I agree, as I said before - I think the 3.0si is the better engine, its fantastic.

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smartypants
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Post by smartypants » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 11:11

garythefish wrote::D Go for a test drive :D that'll help with the decision :wink:

Before I bought my first Zed I went through the same process. Don't get me wrong, I loved my 2.8 but the ///M is a totally different car.
I test drove an S50 and then settled on a 2.2 sport :)

Solely on practicalities though as it wass going to be my daily drive of 18k miles a year

///M was cheaper to buy too!

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 12:28

PhoenixCoupe wrote:
pop_sausage wrote:a bit of a different perspective, I went from the z4 3.0 to z4 3.2. Whist the z4m is a better all round car than the 3.0l - it's not worth the extra I'm paying/paid over my old 3.0L IMO. Yes the power is amazing, but then the 3.0L was a capable engine as well and offered 90% of usable power as the M does in a real world driving - infact, better low down pull. I was never left thinking I need more when I had it.
Even less between the 3.0si and the Z4M. Unless there's a financial reason to change, it's not really worth it, even with normal power steering and so on.
A financial reason to change is usually when debating a "downgrade", a financial excuse would probably be the right term to change to a Z4M :)

I don't think the 3.0 has more power or torque anywhere (RPM) than the 3.2 though (either 3.0 vs S50 or 3.0si vs S54 Z4M).

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PhoenixCoupe
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  Z4 coupe 3.0si
Location: Mars

Post by PhoenixCoupe » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 15:04

I'd disagree - I've never had any problems keeping up with other people in Z3M's or Z4M's - on the road or on the track in my 3.0si, and neither has Dario in his 3.0i.
When I was looking at buying mine, I tried both models, and 99% of the time the M is no quicker and offers no real benefit over the 3.0si. It's a lot heavier on fuel, insurance is higher, as is road tax. I haven't regretted my decision once.
The days of the M cars being a level above the standard models is long gone I'm afraid, especially with things like the 135, 335i and 335d....
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smartypants
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Post by smartypants » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 15:22

Especially when you bring into the equation very cheap remaps on cars like the 335i and 335d - which are now becoming the "normal" thing to do, they are actually quicker in every day driving conditions, whilst being far more economical to own.

As I said before, its more about owning an ///M derivative, than any real performance increase - which is becoming less and less of a gap.

LEX77
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: South Wales

Post by LEX77 » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 15:38

Just met up this morning (lovely sunny day, just right) with a friend of mine who has a 98 Estoril Blue M.

I drove both cars back to back over a couple of hours.

Whilst both cars performance below 70mph seemed actually VERY similar, the in gear shove of the M would I think leave the 3.0 whilst accelerationg from a rolling 50mph up to who knows ;-)

My exhaust sound (standard 3.0) seemed a lot deeper than the M around town in 4th. Higher revs the M sounded great though.

The M seemed more of a "raw" experience to the 3.0L (which isn't by any means a comfortable or luxurious drive)

Decided (for know ;-) )Keeping the Three point 0.

Not worth the change in my humble opinion, which may change, as it so frequently does.

I believe I can exploit probably 90 perecent of the 3.0L's capabilities, which I've come a customed to.
Not so sure with the M, but I think maybe this was down to the tyre and brake wear on his particular car. Drove an M once before and sure it was better than his (sorry fella)


Very glad I did this.

On another note.....

Not a fan of the looks of the Z4. I had the choice at the dealers of 3.0L Z3 or 3.0L Z4 when I bought mine (only 3.4k difference). Think the 3 will age better.
Silver Z3 3Litre " gone :-( "

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Gazza
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Post by Gazza » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 15:45

Good one Lex :wink:
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"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 16:41

PhoenixCoupe wrote:I'd disagree - I've never had any problems keeping up with other people in Z3M's or Z4M's - on the road or on the track in my 3.0si, and neither has Dario in his 3.0i.
When I was looking at buying mine, I tried both models, and 99% of the time the M is no quicker and offers no real benefit over the 3.0si. It's a lot heavier on fuel, insurance is higher, as is road tax. I haven't regretted my decision once.
I don't doubt for a second the 3.0/3.0si is a great engine but it's not as powerful as the M engine but like you say in the real world there isn't loads in it in give or take situations. Many quickish cars appear to be similar "on the road" and perhaps on track too. As I said earlier and you agree, it's purely budget that dictates what you buy. I was thinking last year about a 3.0Si Z4C as the Z4MC was a bit too pricey!
Last edited by c_w on Wed 29 Apr, 2009 16:53, edited 3 times in total.

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 16:43

smartypants wrote:Especially when you bring into the equation very cheap remaps on cars like the 335i and 335d - which are now becoming the "normal" thing to do, they are actually quicker in every day driving conditions, whilst being far more economical to own.

As I said before, its more about owning an ///M derivative, than any real performance increase - which is becoming less and less of a gap.
Chipping a 335d to be as quick as an M3 is a whole different ball game IMO; driving pleasure on track/fast road of a diesel is about 2/10 vs 8/10 for an M engine. Diesels are best at swift effortless performance, start extending them and the aural sensation or lack of wanes.

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PhoenixCoupe
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  Z4 coupe 3.0si
Location: Mars

Post by PhoenixCoupe » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 17:27

c_w wrote: As I said earlier and you agree, it's purely budget that dictates what you buy. I was thinking last year about a 3.0Si Z4C as the Z4MC was a bit too pricey!
Actually budget didn't factor into it at all - I could have bought any BMW from the current range. But, the M wasn't £10k more of a car.
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pangster
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Post by pangster » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 17:32

PhoenixCoupe wrote:
c_w wrote: As I said earlier and you agree, it's purely budget that dictates what you buy. I was thinking last year about a 3.0Si Z4C as the Z4MC was a bit too pricey!
Actually budget didn't factor into it at all - I could have bought any BMW from the current range. But, the M wasn't £10k more of a car.
LOL! Image Image

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 18:19

PhoenixCoupe wrote:
c_w wrote: As I said earlier and you agree, it's purely budget that dictates what you buy. I was thinking last year about a 3.0Si Z4C as the Z4MC was a bit too pricey!
But, the M wasn't £10k more of a car.
Budget! :dunce:

Seriously though, I can see where you're coming from and I would also consider a 3.0si over a Z4M IF I couldn't afford/wasn't perpared to pay for and run a Z4M. Not saying you couldn't/can't afford an Z4MC as you're loaded :P , but cost aside the Z4M has the better engine, suspension, diff etc so for me if I could I would. But the 3.0Si is not, by a long shot, a bad 2nd best.

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PhoenixCoupe
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  Z4 coupe 3.0si
Location: Mars

Post by PhoenixCoupe » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 18:34

Well, seeing as I have 2 REAL M cars - E28 M5 and E24 M635CSi and a E61 550i Touring as well as the Z4, budget didn't come into it.
I'm not in the habit of throwing money away though...
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c_w
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Post by c_w » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 18:41

But for me if the budget wasn't in question it'd be Z4MC - it'd prob have cost almost £8k+/year for the first 2 years though :shock:

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Post by danieltharris » Wed 29 Apr, 2009 18:44

Any of the Z4 Coupes are just monsters of a car (in the good sense).

I don't think theres much out there that looks better. Bet that 3.0si is as lovely to drive as it is to look at in your sig 8-)

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smartypants
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Post by smartypants » Thu 30 Apr, 2009 08:15

c_w wrote:
smartypants wrote:Especially when you bring into the equation very cheap remaps on cars like the 335i and 335d - which are now becoming the "normal" thing to do, they are actually quicker in every day driving conditions, whilst being far more economical to own.

As I said before, its more about owning an ///M derivative, than any real performance increase - which is becoming less and less of a gap.
Chipping a 335d to be as quick as an M3 is a whole different ball game IMO; driving pleasure on track/fast road of a diesel is about 2/10 vs 8/10 for an M engine. Diesels are best at swift effortless performance, start extending them and the aural sensation or lack of wanes.
Oh I agree entirely - but we were talking about performance comparisons and was just putting my oar in regarding modern diesel saloons :)

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:18

Yes I agree! BMW are probably making the best diesel car engines at the moment.

A chipped 335d of V10 M5? What's your budget :twisted: :lol:

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