serious help after accident please.

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Tibs
Joined: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 16:38
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serious help after accident please.

Post by Tibs »

Hello all.

I have not been on the site for a while, due to a few personal reasons, but not to worry.

Anyway, a little update on our Z3 ownership and a request for some help and advice.

The Z3 is my partners car, its only the 2nd car she has ever owned(Citroen Saxo being her 1st - so its a nice step up), and is the 1st BMW that either of us has had.

We got it from its previous owner for a good price, knowing that we would need to spend a little bit on it, as I could see that it was a really good solid honest car behind the fact that it hadn't been looked after very well for the last 12-18 months.

1997 R-reg with 61000miles on the clock verified by mot docs and some insider knowledge on my part.

We have had it a couple of months, and I have put in days and days worth of elbow effort into getting the car looking as it should, and had it fully sorted service and mechanical wise to see what we have for our money basically.

Anyone who sees the car, asks if its really an R-reg, or is it a private plate as it looks cracking for a standard base model. I like it lots and more importantly, my other half loves it.

Now, the advice required part please guys. Thanks for reading this far...!

Following me home after a light rain shower, my other half spun coming off a local roundabout(a spot known for just the same accident).

The back of the car came round really quite fast, alot quicker than I would have thought it would to be fair, and she did all the right things to try and save it. I could only watch in my rear view as it all unfolded behind me.

Speed was low, about 30mph in a 40 zone, but the road is slightly cambered and has a lot of buses turning on it. It becomes greasy and has seen dozens of similar accidents over the years. In fact the curb is built up on one side to 'catch' people who have a 'moment'. Thats what the council seem to think of the section of road and its 'characeristics'.

She was very shaken, after the car spun 3 times whilst on the enlarged curb. Damage looked like OSR wheel and tyre, plus suspension damage etc.

Car recovered, assessed and repaired, no real harm done. Bonus.

However. BMW dealer supplying the repair parts, made the repairers sign a disclaimer. To the effect that the replacement alloy wheel would not be fitted to our car, as it would make it inherently dangerous to drive, being a non-standard wheel.

This was noted by us when we bought the car. It has late model 3 series alloys on it and we think it looks well running on them.

The question now being, "Are Z3's that dependant on having a particular wheel fitted, when it comes to safe drivability?"

What are your thoughts, opinions and experiences on this?

It has me concerned to think that my beloved is driving the car and it could be prone to spinning again, and as winter approaches, the worry grows to be honest. I am thinking of buying a full set of Z3 alloys for the car, but currently, cash flow is restricted, so this will have to wait.

What to do? I look forward to reading serious genuine replies and thank you again for taking the time to read my post.
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c_w
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Post by c_w »

You don't say what size alloys? you do say "late model 3-series" so probably 17" or 18". 17" were specified fro mthe factory as option for Z3s so don't thinks this would be an issue (and offsets are the same as 3-series). 18s in theory would be prone to faster "breakaway" but doubt it would have an affect on what happened as speeds were quite low.
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motco
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Post by motco »

I wish I could give you a definitive answer to put your mind at rest but unfortunately I cannot. But, if I were BMW I might cover my backside by making such a disclaimer, whether or not there was an issue, for fear of comebacks through the courts. Can you not follow it up back through the dealer/repairer and find out from BMW why this might be? :?:
Tibs
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Post by Tibs »

Sorry.

Good point.

Its running 16" 3 series alloys. They certainly 'look' ok, not jutting out or anything and car seems to drive ok on them too.

Got me to thinking/wondering if the Z3 needs a perculiar offset? Im used to old Vauxhalls that did you see!
Tibs
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Post by Tibs »

I did follow it up in the first instance. Dealer said that the wheels would make the car unstable and prone to the rear stepping out. But not as to why the wheels would make this so.
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Jonttt
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Post by Jonttt »

Tibs, this is an interesting one. So long as the wheel falls within acceptable limits re offset and width (which a 3 series should so far as I know) then I can't see what the problem is. After all there is a whole industry designed to do exactly this in aftermarket alloys.

The only thing I can possibly think of is that late 3 series are designed to have runflat tyres fitted. These are inherantly different than standard tyres. I am not aware of why this should be a factor as would imply the alloy has some sort of incompatable design specifically for run flat tyres which I am not aware of. In fact it is common practice to remove the runflats and fit standard tyres to improve handling on modern BMW's.

I think this smacks of BMW legal department (probably driven by USA legal cases) covering their backside.

I would have thought by far the most important factor would be the make / condition of actual tyre fitted and if anything you would be better of investing in new tyres with plenty of tread for piece of mind.

I have a similar roundabout near to where I live and learnt a valuable lesson some 15 years ago by doing a 360 but fortunately missing everything whilst tavelling well below the speed limit on a damp road which is prone to oil on the surface from heavy goods vehicle (have no idea why it seems to affect this particular roundabout). Losing a car on oil is totally different than a normal rear end breakaway and is scary as you seem to float around like a full speed aquaplane but doing much less speed.

I would think your alloys are fine but would be worth getting the alignment / tyres double checked for piece of mind and driving the car yourself so that you are happy with it. Would take anyone a bit of time to build confidence back up after an experience like that :wink:
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pingu
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Post by pingu »

What style of rim? (a photo would be good)

What is the wheel size and offset of the new wheel? (i.e. 7JX16 ET:46)

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14911 may help you identify the offset.

What is the tyre size? (i.e. 225/50ZR16)

Are the same on both sides?
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Tibs
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Post by Tibs »

Thank you very much to those who have replied.

I will be taking a wheel off later this week when I get chance and noting all details off the back of the rim, to compare etc.

I will post on here what i find to see what we can come up with.

Cheers guys.

( I have to say that I am finding that this is a great little owners forum, better than one or two I have been/am involved with :-) )
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Post by Zed Carer »

Hi Tibs - nothing on the wheels but just wanted to say glad that you're partners OK and hopefully none the worse for what must have been a real scare. Hopefully the Zed is / will soon be sorted and you can both enjoy it in the future.
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Mike Fishwick
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Wheels

Post by Mike Fishwick »

It would be interesting to know the dimensions of the wheels and tyres, tyre type, engine size, and if auto or manual gearbox. They are all factors which may have a bearing on the matter, along with the road surface.

Was the roundabout close to a filling station? White Van Man usually fills up to overflowing, oblivious that he will lose fuel through a badly-fitting filler cap and the tank breather on the first bend/roundabout.

What is the road surface like? If the roundabout and its exit has become saturated in diesel droppings you may have a good claim against the local council.
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Robin
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Post by Robin »

Once in my 2.8 which had bog standard wheels I experienced sudden rear end breakaway at fairly low speed & rate of turn on a smooth damp slip road into a hotel.
Within in an instant the car had done a 180.
Being rear light & front heavy gives these cars great chuckability in the dry but makes them hairy & unpredictable in the wet.
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W444 LKR
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Post by W444 LKR »

Just a few weeks ago went 180 going round a roundabout, it was raining slightly, only travelling at about 40 mph and the car suddenly went. :head:

Scared the hell out of me as I had no control and was lucky i didn't do any serious damage.

Taught me a lesson to respect this car when its wet, quite unpredictable as its a different car in the dry.

Glad to hear your partner is ok.
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Mike Fishwick
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Wet

Post by Mike Fishwick »

What are you people doing? I've done lots of miles in wet weather and have never experienced more than the odd wriggle. That's one of the reasons I stick with Falken tyres, after hearing Goodyear FI users tell tales of tail-happy behaviour in the wet.

If you drive in the wet as if you were in a Grand Prix, then perhaps you will find the Z3 to be unpredictable and hairy, but that's your fault - don't blame the car.

I do however, hear from lots of people in the UK that diesel spills are a real problem, particuarly on roundabouts and slip roads - but again, those are the kind of places we should anticipate slipperyness, and drive accordingly.

Maybe I'm just a coward . . .
skeete
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Post by skeete »

For those with DSC/ASC do you find it actually helps or is just voodoo magic thats not real?

I have had one break away, but stupidly I changed down gear into 2nd round a tight left turn at about 15 mph, caught it ok but made my heart race for the wrong reasons :oops: . Lucky no car was coming the other way.

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Post by PVR »

Coming back to the accident bit, obviously a concern is that the insurance company gets hold of that disclaimer statement and wriggle their way out of paying as the car is not standard.

Did you declare the wheels as non standard wheels on the policy? You know what the companies can be like when they spot something like that.

I am not sure if they have paid out or not at the moment and whether that statement had been issued, but it may be cheaper / better in the long run to get a set of OEM wheels fitted.
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Adam
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Re: Wet

Post by Adam »

Mike Fishwick wrote:What are you people doing? I've done lots of miles in wet weather and have never experienced more than the odd wriggle. That's one of the reasons I stick with Falken tyres, after hearing Goodyear FI users tell tales of tail-happy behaviour in the wet.

If you drive in the wet as if you were in a Grand Prix, then perhaps you will find the Z3 to be unpredictable and hairy, but that's your fault - don't blame the car.
I have to agree with Mike on this one. I have driven my 2.8 with falkens in all conditions. I have also pushed hard in the wet and yes the back end can wiggle but you have to be pretty silly to really get the car into an oh s**t moment. Its a matter of driving within YOUR limits, Knowing the car, analyzing the conditions and anticipation. When giving drivers briefings at the race track I point to the karts and say "what are they doing in the pits...nothing. so what makes them crash/spin etc....the nut behind the wheel. The only thing that cant be supplied or fitted is common sense, that has to be applied by the driver"

Drive to the conditions and within your limits. Accidents do happen but I would say 8-9 out of 10 accidents are cause by people driving beyond there limits. Everyone is guilty of thinking there a better driver then they actually are.
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Ian_C
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Re: Wet

Post by Ian_C »

Adam wrote:
Mike Fishwick wrote:What are you people doing? I've done lots of miles in wet weather and have never experienced more than the odd wriggle. That's one of the reasons I stick with Falken tyres, after hearing Goodyear FI users tell tales of tail-happy behaviour in the wet.

If you drive in the wet as if you were in a Grand Prix, then perhaps you will find the Z3 to be unpredictable and hairy, but that's your fault - don't blame the car.
I have to agree with Mike on this one. I have driven my 2.8 with falkens in all conditions. I have also pushed hard in the wet and yes the back end can wiggle but you have to be pretty silly to really get the car into an oh s**t moment. Its a matter of driving within YOUR limits, Knowing the car, analyzing the conditions and anticipation. When giving drivers briefings at the race track I point to the karts and say "what are they doing in the pits...nothing. so what makes them crash/spin etc....the nut behind the wheel. The only thing that cant be supplied or fitted is common sense, that has to be applied by the driver"

Drive to the conditions and within your limits. Accidents do happen but I would say 8-9 out of 10 accidents are cause by people driving beyond there limits. Everyone is guilty of thinking there a better driver then they actually are.
I'm another one with a 2.8 who's never had an 'oh s**t' moment in the wet. I've run Avon zz3, Toyo Proxes4 and Dunlop SP9000 on my z3 without any real issues. I'd say that the Toyo's were the best for grip in my experience.
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W444 LKR
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Post by W444 LKR »

On reflection I think the word unpredictable is incorrect, however my point is that I sympathise with Tibs's situation as it happened to myself recently (not because I was driving beyond my limits or like a grand prix driver) and very unexpectedly.

I dont think when you are going around a roundabout (lots of rounds there :wink: ), and not exceeding the speed limit that your thought process is on the road being greasy on that particular area. You can be driving sensibly and be unfortunate.

I know that this situation would not have happened in my other car which is front wheel drive.

I have Toyo's on my Golf GTI, Avon ZZ3 on my Z3M and Falkens on the family car. All are very good.

The Toyos in my opinion are the best. :wink:
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motco
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Post by motco »

skeete wrote:For those with DSC/ASC do you find it actually helps or is just voodoo magic thats not real?

I have had one break away, but stupidly I changed down gear into 2nd round a tight left turn at about 15 mph, caught it ok but made my heart race for the wrong reasons :oops: . Lucky no car was coming the other way.
I'd be interested to hear too, having only recently joined the fold with a car with DSC. :?:
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Gio
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Post by Gio »

I have DSC on my 2.2 sport, and I've tried flooring it on a few bends when safe to do, and so far haven't got it to kick in, the car either has just to much grip, or I'm not trying hard enough (possibly the latter as I don't want to trash the car).
I don't think I'm brave enough to try this in wet weather. :oops:
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Jonttt
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Post by Jonttt »

Guys I think your missing the issue here. I agree that in the wet you would really need to be reckless to lose the back end, progressive throttle and "feel" should stop this from happening even if your "pushing" on in the wet. But and this is the issue, throw (not literally :D ) oil into the equation and its a different ball game, the back end can go without warning. The one and only time it happened to me (was a rear wheel drive) was in a car I knew inside out and yet I lost both the back AND front end and floated around a 360, total lack of all traction, all I could do was get off the throttle and try to keep the front wheels in the direction of travel until I regained grip. I actually came to a complete stop facing the way I had been travelling and in the centre of the lane. The scary bit is that I've always been convinced there was nothing I could do to have prevented it, I took the roundabout as normal and was feeding in the power in 2nd well within the limits of the car. When I looked at the road surface I could see the oil sitting on top of the water :shock: Was effectively a skid pan. Thats what seems to have happened in this case. Oil and water definately do not mix :head:
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Robin
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Post by Robin »

I'm familiar with zed characteristics. I sometimes apply a lot of throttle in 1st to make a quarter donut happen in the wet to kick the rear end round when coming out of side roads, once I've checked nothing's coming of course.
So I know how to chuck it around in the wet with no problem. Chucking it around makes me chuckle.
In the case of rear end breakaway I referred to, the slip road was very smooth & lacking in granite chippings.
The point of no return was not far off a straight line. That point of no return varies according to the road surface such as oil or smoothness combined with wet.
You can't usually see oil or lack of granite chippings.
So in the wet it's not often possible to know where the limit of the envelope is at any point in time. Hence I am careful at speed in the wet. I brake & turn fairly gently unless there's loads of room & no traffic or obstacles in the event of a spin.
At higher speed there's a relatively high risk of aquaplaning as zeds have wide tyres & light rear ends.
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RobBruce
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Re: serious help after accident please.

Post by RobBruce »

Tibs wrote:The Z3 is my partners car, its only the 2nd car she has ever owned(Citroen Saxo being her 1st - so its a nice step up), and is the 1st BMW that either of us has had.............

Following me home after a light rain shower, off a local roundabout(a spot known for just the same accident)...........

but the road is slightly cambered and has a lot of buses turning on it. It becomes greasy and has seen dozens of similar accidents over the years. In fact the curb is built up on one side to 'catch' people who have a 'moment'. Thats what the council seem to think of the section of road and its 'characeristics'..................

What to do? I look forward to reading serious genuine replies and thank you again for taking the time to read my post.
Tibs, if you take these three statements together I think you might find the reason behind the spin.

Your GF is an inexperienced driver. That's not a criticism, just a fact. She's very lucky to be driving a Z as a second car, but it's very different to a Saxo.

The Saxo is a light, front wheel drive low powered car. The Z is the complete opposite. If you combine the handling characteristics of the Z with the poor road surface and her lack of experience, I think you can see where the problem lies.

If she was a little too harsh or heavy with the controls - steering and/or throttle - combining that with the above is probably what caused the spin. If she's moved off quickly to keep you in sight at the roundabout, that may have been the problem. Obviously, tyre condition may have be a contributary factor, but it's unlikely to have been the primary cause.

I hope this doesn't sound too critical of your GF - it's not meant to be. I just think that it's a much more likely reason for the spin than some rubbish excuse about wheels from a stealer.

Glad she's ok too :)

Regards
Rob
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Gazza
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Post by Gazza »

I think BMW wanted the Disclaimer as the wheels are non standard fit on a Z3, irrespective of size.
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motco
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Post by motco »

Robin wrote:Once in my 2.8 which had bog standard wheels I experienced sudden rear end breakaway at fairly low speed & rate of turn on a smooth damp slip road into a hotel.
Within in an instant the car had done a 180.
Being rear light & front heavy gives these cars great chuckability in the dry but makes them hairy & unpredictable in the wet.
A factor in this event might well be the quality of the tarmac on the hotel's sliproad. There is, or was, a short dead end road outside a Post Office despatch centre in Watford and there is a pillar box down this cul-de-sac. I drove into this little stub-end of a road to use the pillar box on a wet morning and was astounded to find that my car of the time (1.8 Sierra) would not only skid horribly under light braking, but that it span its wheels easily with little effort. We tend to forget how awful roads used to be not so long ago - this being an antiquated bit of road - and how much research has been done on improvements in road grip. The hotel slip road might well have been cheap, old style tarmac.
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Robin
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Post by Robin »

Yes it was lack of granite chippings in my case. Perhaps on private roads there is no legal obligation for the owner to ensure the surface is safe.
I've had my Mondeo lose grip in the wet. The front loses grip at the same rate as the rear so you keep pointing forwards because the front/rear balance is very good.
In the zed of course it is not good. The centre of mass is forward from mid point between the front & rear wheels. So the rear loses grip much faster & before you know it your facing backwards when the preferable option would be facing forwards !
I've only been caught out twice in 6 years of zed driving. The wet hotel slip road & on another occasion the rear went due to aquaplaning going at very silly speed in a heavy downpour when applying the brakes hard. Not very nice when you wind up pointing backwards travelling at a speed I can't mention here. Just as well it was a straight bit of fairly empty motorway.
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Tibs
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Post by Tibs »

Thank you all who have posted, lots of input of a constructive nature is what these kind of forums is all about in my opinion.

Right, to address a few issues.

The tyres on the car were a mixed bag to be honest. They had a few mm left on each, but were of differing makes and age, so were due to be replaced as and when funding allowed (within the next month or two anyway). This will not have helped in the accident, granted.

The driving experience of my OH is not huge, true, and a Z3 is quite a step up in many ways to a Saxo, mainly in driving caracteristics rather than 'image'.

The road surface at the location of the accident is of mixed tarmac (after repairs and resurfacing) and is on a camber. It is not 'covered' with oil, but when it is raining or has been raining, the road surface certainly does change and becomes very greasy and quite un-nerving at times. It seems to be as a consiquence of buses and heavy goods vehicles turning, I can't see why anything else would influence the conditions in this way.

Moving on.

Had the wheels off today, and noted the size and offset.

7J16 ET47

These are genuine BMW rims and 'look' and 'sit' well on the car. Had them balanced today along with new tyres all round.

Chose Pirelli P7's. Have to say that after driving home from the garage that the car has been transformed. The slightly 'nervous' feel to the car has gone. I feel much better knowing this now and about my OH driving it.

Handbook lists 225/50 VR16 as the tyre size. These were fitted to the fronts at the time of buying the car. They looked a bit 'over tyred' on the alloys to be honest, a feeling echoed by the tyre dealer.
The rears had 205/55 VR16 tyres fitted, and these certainly looked better on the rims and the car.
Whilst being repaired after the accident, the repairers replaced the damaged tyre like for like, so we had a brand new 205 P7 on the rear, and 3 old tyres still on the car.
So rather than buy 4 225 tyres, after discussion with the tyre dealer and consulting the BMW dealer, it was agreed that 205/55VR16 tyres would be the way to go on these alloys and would not be detrimental to the Z3.

Thank you all again for taking the time to read this post, and for your constructive input. You are all proving top guys and very helpful.

Grab yourselves a beer!
Tibs
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Post by Tibs »

Finally got round to sorting a picture out.

I know its nothing special, but its our first BMW and its a lovely little thing.


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Tibs
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Post by Tibs »

Thanks Robert!
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Robert T
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Post by Robert T »

They are all special, especially when you find somewhere like that to park them. :wink:

That kind of shot, with a dark sky and dark sea really brings out the colour in Atlantas. I like that a lot.

Cheers R.
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Jonttt
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Post by Jonttt »

Tibs, great picture, thats one of my favourite colours :wink:

The wheelslook great as well.

I think though to be honest you now know the cause of the accident (or the major factor) was the tyres.

At the end of the day they are the only thing that interacts with the road, skimping on these or "I'll replace them next month" when you know they need doing is a recipe for disaster. I think this has been an eye opener for you both and at the end of the day the car has been repaired at lot easier than a person can be so I'd count myself lucky and raise tyres on your priority list in future :wink:

Personally I could not live with the guilt if something happened to a love one due to my allowing them to use a potentially unsafe car :nono

All part of lifes great learning curve and I'm not trying to preach to you but is a great example to others of how important tyres are.
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W444 LKR
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Post by W444 LKR »

Car looks great, nice location for the shot also 8-)
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Ian_C
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Post by Ian_C »

Great pic tibs. Got to be a candidate for the 2010 zroadster calendar :wink:
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Tibs
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Post by Tibs »

Jonttt wrote:Tibs, great picture, thats one of my favourite colours :wink:

The wheelslook great as well.

I think though to be honest you now know the cause of the accident (or the major factor) was the tyres.

At the end of the day they are the only thing that interacts with the road, skimping on these or "I'll replace them next month" when you know they need doing is a recipe for disaster. I think this has been an eye opener for you both and at the end of the day the car has been repaired at lot easier than a person can be so I'd count myself lucky and raise tyres on your priority list in future :wink:

Personally I could not live with the guilt if something happened to a love one due to my allowing them to use a potentially unsafe car :nono

All part of lifes great learning curve and I'm not trying to preach to you but is a great example to others of how important tyres are.

I know you are not trying to preach, I take on board what you say. I never ever skimp on tyres though, spent too many years working in around bodyshops and garages and seen too many instances of skimping for me to do the same, its just been a hard time financially for us recently and we couldnt afford them at the time.
Tyres and brakes are top of the pile for me when it comes to my cars.

Glad a few of you like the look of the car, thanks for the kind words regarding my photo.
Tibs
Joined: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 16:38
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  Z3 roadster 1.9
Location: Cleveland

Post by Tibs »

myredzed wrote:Great pic tibs. Got to be a candidate for the 2010 zroadster calendar :wink:

Good call! Thank you!

Think I'd like a copy of the calendar regardless of ours been in it, although that would make my OH's day(or month as it were!) if it was included.
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Jonttt
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  M roadster S54
Location: Liverpool

Post by Jonttt »

I agree would make a great calander pic, gets my vote
Happiness is not around the corner........happiness is the corner
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Zed Carer
Joined: Thu 13 Dec, 2007 20:27
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Wakefield

Post by Zed Carer »

Tibs wrote:Finally got round to sorting a picture out.

I know its nothing special, but its our first BMW and its a lovely little thing
As Robert said - They are all special especially your first one. Great photo - great confidence in your handbrake. Glad that everything has turned out OK in the end.
Hers: Z4 2.0i Sp --------------------- His: Z3 2.8
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Ragtop
Joined: Sun 26 Jul, 2009 20:38
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  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: Bexhill on Sea

Post by Ragtop »

Great picture Tibs. Good to see another Atlanta Blue
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Tibs
Joined: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 16:38
Posts: 25

  Z3 roadster 1.9
Location: Cleveland

Post by Tibs »

Zed Carer wrote:
Tibs wrote:Finally got round to sorting a picture out.

I know its nothing special, but its our first BMW and its a lovely little thing
As Robert said - They are all special especially your first one. Great photo - great confidence in your handbrake. Glad that everything has turned out OK in the end.

Handbrake held fine thankfully, but had it in gear too! Just in case.....
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Jonttt
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  M roadster S54
Location: Liverpool

Post by Jonttt »

You've got me planning how to get mine on Blundellsands with the iron men :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Place
Happiness is not around the corner........happiness is the corner
Image Video or Journal Garage: 2015 FFRR Black Edition, Porsche Boxster GTS, 1997 Porsche Carrara C4S, Ex 2001 BMW S54 Z3m Roadster
Tibs
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  Z3 roadster 1.9
Location: Cleveland

Post by Tibs »

Fantastic idea! Never heard of this place, quite like Gormleys work, might pencil in a visit at some stage.
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Jonttt
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  M roadster S54
Location: Liverpool

Post by Jonttt »

My girlfriend lives opposite, very surreal,well worth a visit if your in Liverpool its about 15 mins from the city centre
Happiness is not around the corner........happiness is the corner
Image Video or Journal Garage: 2015 FFRR Black Edition, Porsche Boxster GTS, 1997 Porsche Carrara C4S, Ex 2001 BMW S54 Z3m Roadster
PVR
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  Z4 M roadster
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Post by PVR »

Your ex-girlfriend - right? :D
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