Engine Problems

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Thu 24 Dec, 2009 15:28

Not the best start to Christmas, it's minus 8 here just now but the car started fine this morning, i got it to the end of the street and it started coughing and then packed in. I have changed the battery, no difference. The crankshaft moves a little back and forth but it will not start.

Anyone had their engine sieze on a Z3? Anyone any ideas? It's not looking good!

stu · Post by **stu** » Thu 24 Dec, 2009 16:48

Check the routine faults first, like crank sensor..

Get someone with a diagnostic kit (AA/RAC/Green Flag) to it! Temps like that are going to find any weakness in elecrical and electronics much more than you having a siezed engine, unless you've been running it on poor quality oil or run it out of oil.

MarkOliver · Post by **MarkOliver** » Thu 24 Dec, 2009 16:57

silly question...Anti freeze?

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Thu 24 Dec, 2009 17:03

There's plenty anti freeze and oil. I would have expected it to cut out at top speeds/revs if it was an engine seizure but I was only coming out the street at about 10-15mph.

The engine wont manually turn right round, there's defintely something jammed in it. It sounds like metal hitting metal when you try to turn it on.

MarkOliver · Post by **MarkOliver** » Thu 24 Dec, 2009 17:14

Don't try to turn it over....

Perhaps read up on water pump failure on here....what model is it ? again its a pure guess without seeing the car

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Thu 24 Dec, 2009 17:24

2000 Z3 2.8 manual. Yeh I may be doing more damage by turning it over. Hopefully this snow goes away soon and I can get it taken into a garage for a proper look.

MarkOliver · Post by **MarkOliver** » Thu 24 Dec, 2009 17:27

Not long ago the viscous fan failed on our 2.8 (snapped off

)

I ended up changing the RAD, Thermostat, waterpump, belt and Fan.

Might be worth just running you eye over the front end of the engine...but SORRY it does sound quite serious (hope its not)

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Fri 25 Dec, 2009 09:37

Stop panicing and thinking about siezures etc - use logic and a bit of thought instead.

Did you start up and let the engine idle, or then drive very slowly?

Either case will result - at such low temperatures - in wet spark plugs, as at very low rpm the fuel delivery is controlled by coolant temperature.

Pull a couple of plugs out and have a look at them - the necessary tools are in the tool tray.

If they are black, and maybe wet, clean them up with a small wire brush, and gently heat them over a gas ring etc until they stop smoking off the excess fuel. It usually works.

If your mind boggles at the idea of removing the plugs, just hold the throttle fully open, and then try to start - this will provide enough air to provide an ignitable mixture, and perhaps dry off the plugs a little.

In some cases this will clear the plugs, but it may flatten the battery before doing so. Remember that at zero degrees a battery will only have half the capacity it had at 20 degrees. An old battery will start out at a lot less than its rated capacity, and will die earlier. Modern batteries can be killed by being fully discharged.

motco · Post by **motco** » Fri 25 Dec, 2009 11:05

The symptoms are weird. Coughing suggests a fuel or ignition failure, but a mechanical block on full rotation could be a physical breakage of something internal. The two are not easily reconcilable. Good Luck...

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Fri 25 Dec, 2009 11:58

So far, all we have been told is that the crank moves a little in both directions, but not how this was done. On the strength of this 'fact' some people seem to be keen on making prophesies of mechanical doom.

Unless a decent spanner can be attached to the crank, all that one can do is to try to turn the cooling fan, which will not tell you anything, so don't go getting all depressed and deciding that the engine is siezed or otherwise mechanically locked.

If it turns over on the starter motor - as seems to be the case, as it refused to start - it cannot be siezed etc.

It would help a lot of a few more facts were presented - does the starter motor work? If not, did it turn the engine over until it expired? What do the spark plugs look like? Was the engine left idling after starting?

I don't know about others, but I at least am not clairvoyant.

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 18:55

Quick update here, all the engine oil has been found in cylinders 1,2 and 6!
Will find it more next Wednesday but it's not looking too good. Have no idea what has happened at such low speeds.

MarkOliver · Post by **MarkOliver** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 12:23

oh dear me.....sorry to hear that please keep us posted.

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Mon 08 Feb, 2010 14:34

Another update,

Took the engine apart, top half was fine.

Then drained all the oil out of the rest of the engine and there are no cracks and the engine is now functioning fine.

Have been told the oil could have been sucked into the engine due to a problem with the manifold in some way? This will be getting checked tomorrow and hopefully can finally resolve the problem and get this damn car back on the road!

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Wed 10 Feb, 2010 17:55

Finally have a source to the problem -

The cyclone valve is knackered and I need to get this replaced.

Anyone ordered one of these from the dealer before? What sort of price?

Cheers

Frank.A · Post by **Frank.A** » Wed 10 Feb, 2010 20:26

Velly interlesting.

What and where is the cyclone valve.

Ian_C · Post by **Ian_C** » Wed 10 Feb, 2010 20:31

Frank.A wrote:Velly interlesting.

What and where is the cyclone valve.

Sounds like something you'd find in a Dyson vacuum cleaner

Frank.A · Post by **Frank.A** » Wed 10 Feb, 2010 20:37

Eureka,it's the crankcase vent valve.

Here it is. Item 1

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=11&fg=15

Brian H · Post by **Brian H** » Wed 10 Feb, 2010 20:38

I wondered what this was myself, I just copied this of the internet.

The cyclone valve/oil separator is a device which is used to take crankcase vapors and run them through this valve using the cyclone method to throw the oil outward allowing it to drain down back into the pan. It also uses a rubber diaphragm and spring to regulate a small vacuum on the crankcase alowing the vapors to be reburned in the engine.

Riwa · Post by **Riwa** » Wed 10 Feb, 2010 20:53

Sounds a lot like frozen crankcase ventilation piping that there has been some discussions as of late on the M54 engine.

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 09:21

If you look at a Dyson vacuum cleaner you will get the idea - they use a cyclone filter, where the centrifugal force throws dirt outwards, seperating it frmo the air flow.

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 09:26

Ah yes, the crankcase valve being the more common term I think. I will post up what price BMW want once it is ordered.

The first thing I thought of was the dyson hoover when he said cyclone valve too! I'm just glad the engine wasn't broken as it's only done 38k.

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 12:32

Crankcase valve £36.00
There are 6 x hoses that connect to the valve that could also be broken/damaged and these and the crankcase valve together cost £113.76 including VAT from local BMW dealer.

Frank.A · Post by **Frank.A** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 15:38

I am still fascinated to know what exactly happened to the PCV valve and how this contributed to most of the contents of the sump being sucked into the cylinders.

RIWA posted earlier that freezing could b the cause.

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 15:56

Probably the moisture in the valve froze, preventing it from opening and venting the crankcase into the inlet manifold. This would have caused the crankcase to pressurise, the air and oil flowing past the piston rings and oiling the spark plugs - hence the rough running before the final shutdown.

It's surprising that so much oil entered the cylinders though - maybe it was increased by repeated attempts to start afterwards.

Frank.A · Post by **Frank.A** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 16:12

I can't imagine how that much oil could ever get past the pistons, in the form of oil mist, especially as the car had only been driven to the end of the street.

I have never heard of anything remotely like this before.

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 16:26

It is rather baffling yes. The car was indeed attempted to be re-started several times probably making it worse.

It basically just coughed to a halt in the freezing temperatures, there was no loud bangs or smoke coming off the engine. The only really noticeable thing was a lot of white smoke coming out of the exhaust but I just presummed this to be the cold weather as I have noticed the Z3 does emitt a lot of this anyway.

I will probably dread starting it in cold weather again.

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 17:06

I wonder if you had been starting the enigne for short spells while it was sitting outside in the snow? This would produce a lot of moisture in the crankcase, which would find its way to the breather valve.

Anyway - in normal use you have nothing to dread - just think of all the people who leave their BMWs outside, then jump in and turn the key without any problems.

I bet your old valve is in fine condition - all it needed was a warm day.

Riwa · Post by **Riwa** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 18:02

Right, from what Ive read the crankcase ventilation piping can freeze up on some cars. For the M54 engine there is a set of piping called "cold climate" version with some 8mm insulation all around them. I think most cars sold new in Sweden had these, but since a lot of Z cars are imported from Germany the issue has arisen a few times.
And despite this cold climate piping quite a few people are still skeptic to whether its still good enough.
Some other manufacturers have gone towards having trace heating on the pipes. BMW have from what I understand pulled the pipes closer to the firewall on newer models.

On a not totally unrelated matter check out this X5 diesel feeding on its own lubrication.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-pxsViKF88

Courageous · Post by **Courageous** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 20:26

On a not totally unrelated matter check out this X5 diesel feeding on its own lubrication.

Riwa - I came across this once myself back in the early eighties as a young marine engineer. My boss at the time (2nd engineer) had purchased a golf diesel and he had been suffering periodic loss of control over speed. I followed him down the motorway once and saw him disappear ahead of me in a cloud of smoke! It was down to me to contact VWGB on his behalf as I was office bound for a period and their technical department was very keen for us to bring the car to their headquarters for examination. It seems that the only prior report of such a phenomena had turned up for some testing but suffered the blight as it entered their car park and rammed a wall hehe!

Turned out it was running on its lube oil too. Rightly scary stuff at the time.

Riwa · Post by **Riwa** » Thu 11 Feb, 2010 21:44

Courageous wrote:Turned out it was running on its lube oil too. Rightly scary stuff at the time.

Well it still not very amusing, I would s*** myself.

Below is a translated version of a Swedish discussion on the crank case topic at Autopower.se if anyone would be interested.

http://translate.google.se/translate?js ... l=sv&tl=en

//Riwa

Post by **vzh7gk** » Fri 12 Feb, 2010 08:46

Courageous wrote:
On a not totally unrelated matter check out this X5 diesel feeding on its own lubrication.
Riwa - I came across this once myself back in the early eighties as a young marine engineer.
Turned out it was running on its lube oil too. Rightly scary stuff at the time.

Seems to be a number of ex-mariners here! I was an R/O from '75 - '91...
On diesels drinking their own lube - happened to a friend's son. His Peugeot 309 had several times, without warning, hit redline. Dealer couldn't find anything wrong (as per usual). Until one day the revs kept going and the engine self destructed at the traffic lights close to where I work... Dealer realised what was going wrong after that.
Cheers,

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Fri 12 Feb, 2010 10:49

I have heard of a marine engine overspeeding, operating its overspeed trip, and then running on its own lube oil due to broken piston rings passing the oil upwards, which probably contained quite a lot of unburnt diesel - exciting stuff!

Courageous · Post by **Courageous** » Fri 12 Feb, 2010 16:25

A sparky be damned! Best job on the ship! Ashore the moment we got alongside, beggars one and all!

We're from the same era then, was with Panocean on chemical tankers 75 to 82 then transferred to the "Andrew" (I know, a bit like swimming upstream).

Mike - you bet. If it ever looked like happening on a main engine I would have run a mile. There's some mass and momentum in a runaway Sulzer 6RND76

Those pistons had a bore of 760mm and weighed in at a hefty 1.5tons including piston rod.

I can feel the room starting to sway........ Sorry for the thread drift

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Mon 22 Mar, 2010 16:09

Just to bring this back up, I finally got the Zed back at the weekend. A final bill of £1050 which isn't as bad as I thought it would be. I will post up a copy of the bill at some point to show the break down of what was done.

The MOT is due next Friday, oh the joys!

I have to say it feels bloody good to drive it again after 3 long months driving about in a Pug 206 and Citroen C3 you can definitely see the difference.

The car is running fine, it was pouring out with blue and white smoke to start with as the oil had got into the silencers in the exhaust but running the car for several miles now this appears to have burned out.

aceman · Post by **aceman** » Mon 22 Mar, 2010 17:22

Mitchell wrote:The car is running fine, it was pouring out with blue and white smoke to start with as the oil had got into the silencers in the exhaust but running the car for several miles now this appears to have burned out.

I hope your cat was replaced aswell or I fear a fail on emisions when you get your MOT done.

Mitchell · Post by **Mitchell** » Fri 26 Mar, 2010 12:43

Well it passed today with no advisory's so the cat was fine. Fingers crossed that's the last of my problems with it.

zroadster.net

Engine Problems

Engine Problems

Don't Panic

Block?

Cyclone Valve

Cyclone Valve

Dread!

Lube Oil Fuelling