Z3 Ford V8 conversion

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 07 Sep, 2010 18:08

Well the supercharger has now gone…. RIP. It sold very quickly, but I still have a ton of bits for the M44 engine. 230hp was good, but was never going to be enough.

Anyhow, impulse buy maybe, lack of V8 definitely.

Here’s the crack. M60 V8 4.0 into my 1.9 pre-facelift Z3. Its going to be tight but I think it will fit ok with a bit of time, care, thought and large hammers and grinders.

First off, Had a clear up of the garage and moved stuff about to give myself as much room all the way round, and moved my tools and benches to.

Managed to buy a complete M60 engine from another chap on another forum, complete with loom, ecu’s, radiator etc. A full cut out.

Collected it in my mates van, completely filled it up ! its massive, physically huge. Glad I had an engine hoist, no way was this baby going to be man-handled.

Engine was removed from an early 740i auto. So no manual box with it, just left with the torque convertor and auto flywheel. This is really the biggest problem. Well no, one of the biggest problems.

List of current problems :-

Sourcing a gearbox to fit the V8 – this is limited, any V8 box from a 3.0 4.0 or 4.4 will fit , 5 or 6 speed. But they are rare and pricey second hand. I was told an M3 evo box will fit, but this, so far as I can tell is only true of a run covering 14 months of the last of the e36’s, so even rarer !

Flywheel – same rarity as gearbox, new dual mass around £350

Clutch – new around £250

Exhaust manifold clearance around steering column and abs unit. – these are both solvable.

Sump clearance over crossmember – luckily I have an early flat sump lump, but it will still be tight.

Engine mounts – these will have to be fabricated – easy.

Rear diff – Need an E30 lsd 3.25 ratio, maybe longer in which case I will swap to an M diff at 3.15

Prop – cut and shut to suit gearbox/diff combo – easy.

The main issue is the gearbox, whether to bite the bullet and go for a pukka V8 manual box from a 540i and clutch/flywheel at a cost of circa £1200
or current favour, use an m3 box with my m3 clutch and graft a fresh piece of steel to the auto flywheel and attach the m3 clutch cover to this. Then have the assembly balanced. This would then leave me to make a bellhousing to mate the M3 box to the V8 engine.
Believe it or not the m3 box avenue would run me around £300-500, and still be upto the job. Probably lighter too as the box is smaller.

Quite a lot to disconnect, especially with all the electrical connections.

Anyhow, started removing the M44 engine, half out, I will completely remove it later.

Got to sort this gearbox issue !!

swamper · Post by **swamper** » Tue 07 Sep, 2010 18:23

watching this with interest

shantybeater · Post by **shantybeater** » Tue 07 Sep, 2010 18:37

awesome...i'll be keeping an eye on this!!

Ian_C · Post by **Ian_C** » Tue 07 Sep, 2010 19:48

:note_to_self: must arrange a deano1712 vs markrnorton shootout at next year's Santa Pod show

As always, looking forward to keeping up with progress Mark

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 07 Sep, 2010 20:23

myredzed wrote::note_to_self: must arrange a deano1712 vs markrnorton shootout at next year's Santa Pod show

As always, looking forward to keeping up with progress Mark

note to self... must fit 200hp nitrous kit to duff up other v8's hahaha

marcusplowman · Post by **marcusplowman** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 01:28

In that small garage...you must be nutts...best of luck with it and dont forget to keep us updated regularly! I fancy an S85B50 V10 conversion if you fancy giving it a go for me next

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 08:40

Pity BMW never offered a stock V8 version, instead of the M roadster - it would have been a real seller in the USA, and with the weight behind the axle line handling should be great.

Gazza · Post by **Gazza** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 10:08

Well done Mark, watching with interest

BenZ3-2.0 · Post by **BenZ3-2.0** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 10:46

looks cool. will keep an eye on this

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 11:54

Dare I ask... but wasn't the 4.0 V8 Nikasil?

skeete · Post by **skeete** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 12:39

Mark, you are a loon !!!

Out of interest.. Doesnt the 4.0 only make around 250bhp? 4.4 around 280bhp?

If you are going for more than 230bhp are you planning a roots or other type of blown induction as an old 740i engine is likely to only make what you had before, plus wont it weigh a little more than the 1.9?

Are you going to be able to reuse the exhaust you fabricated before or will you need a proper dual exit? If so what are you going to do about the rear floor pan as the non M chassis has a load of crap in the way. Pretty sure you can strip it out though.

Really dont mean to sound critical as I have a huge amount of respect for you and you clearly know what you are doing, unlike most posters on Pistonheads (Damn that crappy forum

)!

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 16:06

Mad Max wrote:Dare I ask... but wasn't the 4.0 V8 Nikasil?

yes the 4.0 was a nikasil, this one was replaced under recall/warranty.

so no issues

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 16:12

skeete wrote:Mark, you are a loon !!!

Out of interest.. Doesnt the 4.0 only make around 250bhp? 4.4 around 280bhp?

If you are going for more than 230bhp are you planning a roots or other type of blown induction as an old 740i engine is likely to only make what you had before, plus wont it weigh a little more than the 1.9?

Are you going to be able to reuse the exhaust you fabricated before or will you need a proper dual exit? If so what are you going to do about the rear floor pan as the non M chassis has a load of crap in the way. Pretty sure you can strip it out though.

Really dont mean to sound critical as I have a huge amount of respect for you and you clearly know what you are doing, unlike most posters on Pistonheads (Damn that crappy forum )!

Loon ? calculated mentalist maybe

the 4.0 and the 4.4 both made 286hp, torque was slightly improved on the 4.4. The 4.0 actually revs a bit better than the 4.4 so hopefully job done. Once re-mapped it should, with a few other tweeks make over 300hp.

V8 weighs about 50kgs more than 4 cylinder, i have removed the heavy a/c pump and other bits of 'gubbins', so reducing weight all the time.

I will have to fab a new exhaust , so the old one is out. but this is not an issue really. The non M has a load of crap in the way ?? do you mean the spare wheel carrier ? This was removed from my car ages ago, so the rear underside bootwell is pretty clear. with some clever pipe and box work the exhausts will fit easy.

alot of work yes, but it should make decent hp and still be balance and reasonabley lightweight.

Z3cade · Post by **Z3cade** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 18:08

Bet you cant wait to fire it up for the first time....

Dont worry about the power... I reckon the sound will keep the smile on your face not the bhp

skeete · Post by **skeete** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 18:11

markrnorton wrote: Loon ? calculated mentalist maybe

the 4.0 and the 4.4 both made 286hp, torque was slightly improved on the 4.4. The 4.0 actually revs a bit better than the 4.4 so hopefully job done. Once re-mapped it should, with a few other tweeks make over 300hp.

V8 weighs about 50kgs more than 4 cylinder, i have removed the heavy a/c pump and other bits of 'gubbins', so reducing weight all the time.

I will have to fab a new exhaust , so the old one is out. but this is not an issue really. The non M has a load of crap in the way ?? do you mean the spare wheel carrier ? This was removed from my car ages ago, so the rear underside bootwell is pretty clear. with some clever pipe and box work the exhausts will fit easy.

alot of work yes, but it should make decent hp and still be balance and reasonabley lightweight.

Just goes to show why you are doing it and I am not.. Clearly you have done your homework.

300bhp with a massive amount of torque will be immense.

Its the torque of this which will be interesting..

Z3 1.9 Torque = 133 ft-lb 138 hp
Z3 2.8 torque = 207 ft-lb 193 hp
Z3 3.0 torque = 220 ft-lb 231 hp
Z3M 3.2 Torque = 251 ft-lb 321hp
Z3MN 4.0 Torque = 295 ft-lb 282 hp

I dread to think how quickly you could go through a set of tyres or chew your 1.9 diff to pieces.. but it would be a lot of fun finding out

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Wed 08 Sep, 2010 20:28

Always do your homework !!

I have had loads of V8's over the years, including Bmw's 540i and 840ci so i know roughly whats going on in the engine dept there.

What is unknown will be the way the car will react to the torque and what diff i select at the back end

It will take a bit of time and development i guess

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Mon 13 Sep, 2010 18:17

Well
what a weekend, complete disaster.

First off, i removed the sump from the engine, perhaps i should have checked , but it was still full of old crappy oil. argghh, who takes an engine out without draining down . oil went everywhere, all over my garage floor. took an hour to clear up.

still. cleared most of the engine bay of brackets and bits, ground them back, will fill and gloss the engine bay once i have things sorted.

had the engine in and out about 5 times, measuring, checking clearances, bonnet line etc.

well, the final answer is..... it wont fit. its just too tall, even dropping the x member. i could dry sump, this would give me about 50mm extra clearance, but it would still be tight.

plan B into operation today.
i think the M60 not fitting may have been a blessing in disguise

bring on plan B, collect it this saturday.

stu · Post by **stu** » Mon 13 Sep, 2010 19:29

What's that then Mister?

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Mon 13 Sep, 2010 19:51

That be a Ford 281 V8, 4.6 litres, (mustang engine)

one of my mates is well into americano, this engine is compact and can produce good power

wey hey

z3_v8 · Post by **z3_v8** » Mon 13 Sep, 2010 22:37

look it this:
http://www.drive2.ru/cars/bmw/z3/z3/z-danger/
http://www.drive2.ru/cars/bmw/z3/z3/z-d ... 2995/#post
et cetera

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:09

Mark - do you envisage any problems in arranging the data link from the immobiliser to the engine management system? As I understand things, it is a rolling code, which must agree between both units to get a start.

Gazza · Post by **Gazza** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 09:14

Mark, be careful of the Mustang 4.6 Modular engine, it's quite wide.

Standard BHP of the 1995 - 2004 4.6 Mod engine is around 225, are you sure it's worth the hassle ?

Later 4.6's produce 320 ish BHP in standard form.

peterandjenny · Post by **peterandjenny** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 09:27

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/08/te ... mw-z3.html

!

more pictures on this page

http://www.denislavshishev.com/car/bmw-z3-v10-project/

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 15:08

Mike Fishwick wrote:Mark - do you envisage any problems in arranging the data link from the immobiliser to the engine management system? As I understand things, it is a rolling code, which must agree between both units to get a start.

Mike, not quite sure which engine management system to run with yet, more than likely it will be stand alone. I'll breach the electrics later and save the fun 'til the end.

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 15:13

garythefish wrote:Mark, be careful of the Mustang 4.6 Modular engine, it's quite wide.

Standard BHP of the 1995 - 2004 4.6 Mod engine is around 225, are you sure it's worth the hassle ?

Later 4.6's produce 320 ish BHP in standard form.

this is a late engine, with potential for easy tuning from some choice american parts. so i'm aiming for around the 350hp mark with the tuning.

it is wide, but its slightly less than the bmw v8, wide wasnt the issue, it was height, and the ford v8 is much shallower than the bmw unit.

its worth the hassle as parts for this as sooooo cheap from the states. far easier to tune, plus its brand new, never run.

Gazza · Post by **Gazza** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 15:16

Worth the hassle if it's the later engine

Superchargers are easily available to

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 15:18

yep later engine, less hassle than tuning the bmw v8, and yes off the shelf blowers from the states. bolt on power !!

Deano1712 · Post by **Deano1712** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 15:52

It looks like a great project Mark. The engine does look at bit wide, but also seems the exhaust ports are coming out already facing 45 degrees down. If so it will be easy to get the headers down without adding much to the overall width. The LSx has the ports facing close to outboard so the header tubes ned to go through at least 80 degrees. A standard 90 degree tube bend adds more width than a 45 degree tube bend. Anyway I'm sure you have fun trying.

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 17:07

The engine is no wider than the M60 bmw lump, but yes the heads are quite tilted so the exhaust headers drop straight down, should be nice n easy

famous last words ........

Tori · Post by **Tori** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 18:25

Expensive but....................

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-Alpina-3-3-En ... 230a16bee1

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 18:58

Tori wrote:Expensive but....................

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-Alpina-3-3-En ... 230a16bee1

but..... girlie six

Tori · Post by **Tori** » Tue 14 Sep, 2010 19:27

lol

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Sun 19 Sep, 2010 10:12

It seems odd that the M60 was too high for a Z3 - perhaps it is a particularly high engine, as BMW had a Z3 with a 5 litre V12 running around the Munich factory ages ago, wihtout any obvious modifications tothe bonnet.

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Sun 19 Sep, 2010 16:04

Not sure why it would be odd Mike, it doesnt follow that the V8 would fit if the V12 does ??

The m60 has the oil collected at the front of the sump, and this clashed with the crossmember and the steering rack. Simple really

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Tue 28 Sep, 2010 18:19

Right, as usual i am upgrading the brakes before the engine, it always seems a sensible way around as if you do it after it doesnt always get done, and that can be dangerous !

Phase 1 was to sell my 2.8i front set-up, done that and they moved quick !!

Phase 2 is calipers

Phase 3 discs

i have just started phase 2. bought some calipers, not well known over here but big in the states and germany. WP

here's a pic

i am hoping they will work with the current master cylinder, but i think that may be optimistic.
I also have to fabricate a bracket to mount these radial calipers to lug mount on the carrier. shouldnt be to difficult as i have done this before on previous vehicles.

these big 6 pots should provide good feel with some excellent clamping.

just need to sort some discs before i fab the mounts

skeete · Post by **skeete** » Thu 30 Sep, 2010 11:38

holy crapoly! You are going to need a master cylinder from a dump truck with those, they look massive !

Are you sure you are going to be able to fit them as they look like they were designed for discs about 400mm!

Will be interesting to see how you mount them on the carriers and how you fabricate a carrier the big.

Have you had anymore thoughts on if you need a meatier MS and where you would get it from and then how you would fit it in the Zed given you are already squeezing in a rather tasty V8?

As always, I am impressed and jealous

makes me sad that I cant afford and more importantly do something this ambitious.

Deano1712 · Post by **Deano1712** » Thu 30 Sep, 2010 16:03

I have been looking at setting up the brakes on my conversion. One issue is that you need to know the axle weights (post conversion) before you know what brake balance you are going to need. You cant tell if the master cylinder needs changing until then.

What size pistons are in those calipers? Can you post a link to them I haven't seen them in my searches? I have a rather fancy spreadsheet to assess brake performance and tyre adhesion. I can plug the numbers in and see what is says. What is the master cylinder now? 1.9? Piston sizes are available at conti-online.

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Thu 30 Sep, 2010 16:21

But the master cylinder essentially just matches the piston size(s) in the calipers to ensure the pedal stroke/movement isn't too little or too much? I thought brake balance was done by virtue of the caliper/disc size and maybe load bias valves?

Gazza · Post by **Gazza** » Thu 30 Sep, 2010 16:32

You can get a manual variable bias valve

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Thu 30 Sep, 2010 19:23

Not sure of the piston sizes, i'll mike them up tomorrow and post.

http://www.wpprobrakes.com is the website, these calipers are meant to work fine with standard rear setup.

running 1.9 m/c at present, wel'll see how it goes with the pedal travel and bias .

i am going for 325mm discs , i didnt want to go massive.

Dolfan · Post by **Dolfan** » Fri 01 Oct, 2010 11:39

I'm really enjoing the read

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Fri 01 Oct, 2010 15:46

Had a bit of a session with the brakes today, mounted the new discs. they look about right under the 18" wheels.
325mm diameter , 330i fitment

the pistons on the calipers measure 24.8mm diameter and mounting up the caliper to disc they will need a bracket approx 20mm x 60mm in section. i say approx as i will need to do a full mock=up to get it on the disc exactly right.

plenty of clearance for the caliper to wheel spke though, 5mm, so thats one less problem.

Deano1712 · Post by **Deano1712** » Fri 01 Oct, 2010 18:39

Looks good Mark.

Info I can find shows the standard 1.9 has 23.81/20.62mm master cylinder. Discs 286/272 and caliper pistons 54 and 36mm (rear). Static brake bias for the standard car works out at 62% front 38% rear.

These calipers have quite small pistons - 3 x 24.8. I'm guessing the caliper bore is 25.4mm which gives 44mm dia effective. This will give you a lot more rear bias - 57% front 43% rear.

I think you will be in the right ball park with this. The standard M has a more rearward bias - 58/42 and you will move the CofG rearwards with the SB Ford. 57/43 seems a good figure. Leave the master cylinder alone. If you end up with too much rear bias go for 345mm M3 CSL discs on the front - happy days!!

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Fri 01 Oct, 2010 19:03

Happy days indeed, managed to find and buy a new manual gearbox for the motor. Just have to go to Norwich at the weekend to pick it up

Tori · Post by **Tori** » Fri 01 Oct, 2010 20:17

markrnorton wrote:Happy days indeed, managed to find and buy a new manual gearbox for the motor. Just have to go to Norwich at the weekend to pick it up

Hey thats my neck of the woods, where abouts in Norwich is it ?

G2JRP · Post by **G2JRP** » Fri 01 Oct, 2010 20:33

My neck of the woods too. Live 15 miles from Norwich.

Very interesting read and dean's too.

best of luck to you both

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Sat 02 Oct, 2010 11:38

Had a full measure up of the brakes this morning, done a few sketches and mock-up.

Bracket now drawn up and ready for machining

Going to use T6 aluminium and helicoil the threads into the block.

just need to get a cost now for the machinework

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Sun 17 Oct, 2010 14:07

Well a bit more work today, started stripping back the redundant wiring loom from the engine bay. As i will be using a separate ECU to run the engine and not the BMW one, i am taking the oppotunity to clear the bay of any extraneous items.

There are many many wires within the boxing and black heat shrink.

I have also interogated the multiplug engine connector to see exactly what i need left.

before

after trimming !

As you can see, there's not much left after the trimming. I will cut off the multi-plug and solder the connections direct once i can work out the new length of cable required.

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Sun 17 Oct, 2010 14:38

After measuring up, i have got the same problem as the other Mark (Deano) and his Z3M V8 conversion and the ABS pump.

The nearside head and exhaust manifold on my Ford engine just clip the ABS pump, so i have to do the same re-location exercise.

My Zed appears to be a bit clear than the M version, but the same problems exist. Cutting and shutting the brake pipes and re-welding the mounts for the ABS units new position.

Unbolts and removes easy enough, fluid drips everywhere !!

Cut the mounts off the inner wing and trimmed them suitabley, then re-located position marked and the areas ground back to bare metal ready for welding.

I also noticed that the inner wing is spot welded, so i am now, as i progress areas around the car, going to seam weld where i can to strengthen the shell and frame.

With the old brackets welded into place, i cleaned up the area and spray primed it ready for a coat of Boston green paint tomorrow.

Its looking ok, once i am happy with the whole engine bay i will re-spray it all gloss, so its nice and shiny.

I have next got to connect the brake lines back in, this requires a bit of joinery and bending, but its all easy enough with the right tools.

Watch this space.....

Hard Top · Post by **Hard Top** » Sun 17 Oct, 2010 14:56

I am gob smacked. Really enjoying this thread.

HT

zroadster.net

Z3 Ford V8 conversion

Z3 Ford V8 conversion

Stock

what a weekend !

Re: what a weekend !

Data

just looking on google and thought this may be of interest

Re: Data

V12