Is it a naturally camber sensitive car ?

mooney · Post by **mooney** » Sun 23 Jan, 2011 22:35

I have been enjoying my z3 3.0 since November. When I got it it was a bit of a wonky drive, pulling to the left and wobbly when braking. Had the car fully tacked, aligned, pumped pressures up, sent it for a suspension check at my local specialist, and all is fine.

So the car now brakes and drives in a straight line, so long as the road is decent.

Now it's been dry and warm for the past few weekends we have taken it for some more spirited drives along the country lanes.

The car seems to be so camber sensitive though. Can be driving along happily, and then when an uneven part of road comes up it takes you by surprise and pulls into the verge or the middle of the road. Sometimes quite forcefully.
This has made us feel not so confident in the car, and are wondering if this is just a characteristic of these cars or if it needs looking at again.

Just starting to plan a 2700 mile road trip in it over the Easter break so wanting to have all confidence in it's capabilities.

Any suggestions?
Thanks

gookah · Post by **gookah** » Sun 23 Jan, 2011 22:46

you don't have Pirelli's do you?

mooney · Post by **mooney** » Sun 23 Jan, 2011 22:58

Nope, I have falkens and they look pretty meaty

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Mon 24 Jan, 2011 10:44

They [non-M roadsters] are just sensitive to it I'm afraid. Tyres can affect it, but even the "best" non-camber sensitive tyre is only reducing the effect a bit.

Frank.A · Post by **Frank.A** » Mon 24 Jan, 2011 12:15

Borrow some non directionals for the front and spot the difference.

The car was originally shod with Continentals but Michelin Pilot Sport and Falken ZE912 are similar.

Check out this thread.

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

and this.

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

SpaceMonkey · Post by **SpaceMonkey** » Mon 24 Jan, 2011 12:41

It'll just be the wide tyres & tramlining buddy.

gelertd1 · Post by **gelertd1** » Wed 26 Jan, 2011 21:28

Worn out rear bushes on the front wishbones can generate alot of movement in the suspension.

To see how much movement these bushes create when worn have a look at this youtube vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJRxNrXJ ... re=related

If they are worn you can replace with standard rubber or go to the 'solid' type. If you go for standard rubber replacement bushes get the genuine BMW items - the aftermarket stuff is all but rubbish - you will be repeating the job again in a few months (or earlier depending on mileage).

If you decide to replace with the 'Powerflex' solid type try this company - currently offering 25% off and free postage.

Took about a week to arrive, under £32 for both sides.

Select the right bushes, they vary depending on whether you have an Mroadster etc.

http://www.zonemotorsport.co.uk/e-shop/home.php?cat=

Zilv3r · Post by **Zilv3r** » Thu 27 Jan, 2011 14:14

I had a similar problem with my car. I replaced the tyres with Falkens and hoped the problem would go away, but it remained the same. I took some advice from a mechanic friend who advised me to have the tracking checked by a specialist machine at a garage in Worthing.
I took it down there and they set the car up, up, it was very slightly out, enough to make a difference. They had to heat the bolts up on the adjusters as they hadnt been moved in years, but other than that it was pretty painless. It wasnt cheap, around £40 but it has cured the problem.

Titan · Post by **Titan** » Thu 27 Jan, 2011 16:56

mooney wrote:Any suggestions?

Offset tyres (ie wider rears than fronts) inevitably lead to some tramlining.

If you haven't got a front strut brace I would recommend one. It will not eliminate the problem but you should find considerable reduction.

I also find that tyre pressures can have a marked effect. It is not the magnitude of the pressure but side to side consistency that matters.

Having checked all that there is one piece of local road that tries to take control of every car that I've driven along it.
It has had a couple of layers of surface dressing, the centre joints have overlapped and the underlying white line are not coincident.
I can only describe the feeling as like sitting at the back of a plane while landing in a strong cross wind - leks and lower torso want to go in different direction from head and chest

If you know a piece of road that is susceptible, use it as a measure of improvement with the various options suggested.

simonbud100 · Post by **simonbud100** » Thu 27 Jan, 2011 18:49

I have the same problem on my 2000 2.0, I have changed from Pirellis to Avon ZV5's on the front, fitted a front strut brace and changed to powerflex front bushes, but still get the same probleams, albeit, slightly less dramatically than before.

My next plan of attack is to have the car 4 wheel laser aligned at a Bosch specialist. I had the tracking done at my local tyre dealer when the tyres were changed, but that didn't seem to make a lot of difference.

I'm at a loss as to what else to try. I know that it's a charcteristic of the car, but it certainly does detract from the enjoyment of driving.

Hard Top · Post by **Hard Top** » Thu 27 Jan, 2011 19:36

I just don't understand this tramlining problem people have, have never experienced it myself, maybe I am just lucky.

I must admit that I am running on original 16'' but even with the winter tires on, I don't have a problem.

I can steer the car with one finger.

(Pre-Face lift)

Strange, to say the least.

HT

Vic-Z3 · Post by **Vic-Z3** » Thu 27 Jan, 2011 21:23

Is this a problem that is more evedent or exclusive to the face lift / rear arch hump model with the staggered wheel and 17" rims or not

Start adding info if you wish to ...........

Mine Does Tramline and is:

1. 2002 2.2i Sport Roadster Face Lift Standard from factory.
2.

swamper · Post by **swamper** » Thu 27 Jan, 2011 22:42

mine does quite a lot 1.9 face lift 16 inch wheels

SpaceMonkey · Post by **SpaceMonkey** » Fri 28 Jan, 2011 10:24

Hard Top wrote:I just don't understand this tramlining problem people have, have never experienced it myself, maybe I am just lucky.

It's just due to the traffic pretty much following one line in the road & it cause grooves in the road. If you have wide tyres the car natural wants to sit in the grooves as if like a tram on a tramline. I've had this my past 3 cars & all were set-up very nicely by some top guys.
Unfortunately it's just an indication of our poor road as opposed to your car having a fault. You could change the whole suspension set-up including bushes & it will not cure it. Save your money.

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Fri 28 Jan, 2011 10:35

Hard Top wrote:I just don't understand this tramlining problem people have, have never experienced it myself, maybe I am just lucky.
I must admit that I am running on original 16'' but even with the winter tires on, I don't have a problem.

I can steer the car with one finger.

(Pre-Face lift)

Strange, to say the least.

HT

Small(ish) wheels and winter tyres will help a lot though, they're generally soft sidewalled. It's the bigger 17" wheeled Z3s with lower profile and generally stiffer tyres that make it suffer more.

That said the car IS more prone to tramlining than, say for [the best] example, the E36 Compact which is an almost identical car underneath.

gelertd1 · Post by **gelertd1** » Fri 28 Jan, 2011 18:52

My Z3 2.8 (pre-facelift with 67k on the clock and 16" wheels) is shod with OE Continentals and was never subject of 'tramlining'. I was more than happy with the handling.

However, on the weeks leading up to the MOT in September I noticed a very slight tendency for the vehicle to try to follow white lines and irregularities in the road surface.

At MOT time I was pleased (if that's the right term for someone costing you money?) when the tester advised that the nearside outer ball joint was on its way and the rear wishbone bushes were 'soft'. I'm satisfied that this is likely to be the cause of the beginning of the tendency to 'tramline'.

With 67k on the clock and for the sake of a couple of hours in the garage it won't harm to replace both front wishbones, the rear bushes (with solid items) and the anti-roll bar links (all quality items no Chinese copies here thankyou) before the Z comes out of 'hibernation'.

I need to replace the rear tyres soon and when I do I'm going to stump up the extra for Continentals in an effort to maintain the handling.

I wonder if Continentals were OE on every Z3 regardless of engine size or did BMW fit a variety of makes? If they did fit Continental only I wonder if they did so for a reason?

Titan · Post by **Titan** » Fri 28 Jan, 2011 19:13

gelertd1 wrote:I wonder if Continentals were OE on every Z3 regardless of engine size or did BMW fit a variety of makes? If they did fit Continental only I wonder if they did so for a reason?

Definitely not - ours had Dunlop SP Sports fitted

Now using Continental Sport Contact 3s
However, both exhibit a degree of tramlining

Dr Shiny · Post by **Dr Shiny** » Fri 28 Jan, 2011 19:33

Add my 99 2.8 to the list of tramliners.

Toyo tyres, standard wheels, front suspension brace. The wife almost refuses to drive it.

I guess we just have to live with it.

Paul

Vic-Z3 · Post by **Vic-Z3** » Fri 28 Jan, 2011 21:58

How can it be that a giant Motor company such as BMW, with it's reputation
to uphold. Have made such an awful mistake with this iconic vehicle. To
let any vehicle go out into the public domain in an almost unroadworthy state.
Is very bad indeed, at least Toyota recalled their cars when it was found that
there was a major problem with a lot of there range of vehicles.
I wonder what BMW would have to say about the problem if they were to recieve many complaints about one vehicle in their range. Such as Tramlining and Dangerous road handling characteristics of the Z3.

Titan · Post by **Titan** » Fri 28 Jan, 2011 23:05

Vic-Z3 wrote:How can it be that a giant Motor company such as BMW, with it's reputation to uphold. Have made such an awful mistake with this iconic vehicle. To let any vehicle go out into the public domain in an almost unroadworthy state

That's a bit heavy....
These vehicles are now 9 years out of production.
I regularly drive different BMWs along the same piece of road described above and they ALL exhibit symptoms of tramlining.
Sometimes, it's not the car, it's the road.

billz · Post by **billz** » Sat 29 Jan, 2011 05:48

Ours pulls left and right depending on what roads we are on but niether me or kim find it a real issue, Our AR Spider did it not as agresivly as the zed but there again it wasnt running wide tyres or it probably would of been. Dont forget these are quite low to the ground and with any low sitting sports car you will find that you feel every issue a road throws up a lot more than a car sitting higher up and on thinner tyres. So when you add it up you have a car sitting lower, on wider tyres and with sportier suspension then yes you will feel the road a hell of a lot more, but hey driving the zed is worth it.

bill

kt66se · Post by **kt66se** » Mon 14 Feb, 2011 11:27

My Z3 2.2 tramlines mainly in the wet and to be honest it feels unsafe. Need to change the tyres even though they look ok. (Currently Contental)

You would think that with such an iconic car BMW would have corrected this. Odd how some tramline while others don't?

I don't use mine for work, if I had too, I would rather not as overtaking and hitting a bad bit of road where tramlining kicks in is a bit nerve wreking. Car holds the road like glue but get to a rough surface and you have to control the steering -

I'm sure these cars can't be legal to drive like this??????

food for thought!

Adam

(If the ball joints are spring loaded, would that not amplify the problem)?

Post by **Robert T** » Mon 14 Feb, 2011 12:04

I hate to say it, but quit blaming BMW. When the car left the factory it would have had the recommended tyres and wheels on it. These have an enormous impact on the handling and add to that wear in the suspension components and you will soon get something that handles like a dog.

Mine was feeling very tramliney a while back and felt marginally better after a suspension bush change, but the single biggest improvement was putting new tyres on it!

Cheers R.

Vic-Z3 · Post by **Vic-Z3** » Mon 14 Feb, 2011 20:28

The point of a tyre is to produce a suitable amount of friction between the vehicle it was designed for and the surface it is traveling on, over the extent
of its life. It should not degrade by an amount equal to making a vehicle behave any different than when the tyres were fitted as new.
Tyres have a shelf life and do check that they are in date when they are fitted.
I have found that the biggest affect on tramlinning is not maintaining the correct tyre pressures in the front curently on mine this appears to be 33psi.
I have to check them every week as the amount of air loss either though bad fitting or pourous american made alloys is horendous considering I only travel
between 50 and 75 miles a week.
I intend to have a reputable tyre fitter take a ganders at my fronts. Take them off and clean the inner alloy beading. Putting them on in a professional manner and getting the balance and pressure 100%.
Fortunately I am in a possition to have this done as one of my friends is an indy tyre fitter.
I will see what his oppinion is on this.

Frank.A · Post by **Frank.A** » Mon 14 Feb, 2011 20:34

Older alloys which have a degree of corrosion will benefit from a 'rim seal' which any tyre service centre should do for under £20 including new valve and balance.

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Tue 15 Feb, 2011 14:33

kt66se wrote:My Z3 2.2 tramlines mainly in the wet and to be honest it feels unsafe. Need to change the tyres even though they look ok. (Currently Contental)

You would think that with such an iconic car BMW would have corrected this. Odd how some tramline while others don't?

I don't use mine for work, if I had too, I would rather not as overtaking and hitting a bad bit of road where tramlining kicks in is a bit nerve wreking. Car holds the road like glue but get to a rough surface and you have to control the steering -

I'm sure these cars can't be legal to drive like this??????

food for thought!

Adam

(If the ball joints are spring loaded, would that not amplify the problem)?

Majority of it is down to scuttle shake I'm afraid. It exists in every Roadster although the M suspension setup helps to a degree as its geometry is different making the wheels a bit more "controlled" to offset body flex.

I used to love driving my 2.8 Roadster on an evening, roof down on a smooth newly-laid road but disliked it on your average road as it never felt settled.

Mr Silver · Post by **Mr Silver** » Wed 16 Feb, 2011 08:26

Apart from an increase in castor angle, how is the M suspension different from the non M cars? There is of course a change in the roll bar linkage but that won't alter anything significantly. I don't see any evidence of 'body flex'. It is my belief that that most of the suspension problems are caused by the front suspension being too stiff and without sufficient weight on the front axle to allow the active components to follow road contours.

My two cents...

Regards.

DC · Post by DC » Wed 16 Feb, 2011 09:44

c_w wrote:
Small(ish) wheels and winter tyres will help a lot though, they're generally soft sidewalled. It's the bigger 17" wheeled Z3s with lower profile and generally stiffer tyres that make it suffer more.

This seems to make sense, like hardtop, I don't have a problem either.
OEM 16" pepperpot style fitted with bridgestone none directional tyres, boring wheels but very practical for the less than perfect roads round here.
Dave.

Vic-Z3 · Post by **Vic-Z3** » Wed 16 Feb, 2011 12:15

I see that some high performance cars use both Directional and Asymmetric tyres in a mix.

So which is best in your oppinions.

Falken 452 = Directional.
Falken 912 = Asymmetric.

Has anyone fitted both either at the same time or on different occasions
and have a preferance to either.

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Wed 16 Feb, 2011 17:02

Mr Silver wrote:Apart from an increase in castor angle, how is the M suspension different from the non M cars? There is of course a change in the roll bar linkage but that won't alter anything significantly. I don't see any evidence of 'body flex'. It is my belief that that most of the suspension problems are caused by the front suspension being too stiff and without sufficient weight on the front axle to allow the active components to follow road contours.
s.

No Z3 has stiff suspension though, including the Z3M - they're all way softer than any contemporary BMW. The Z4 was much stiffer and lower too but had a much stiffer body though. If you ever watch a Z3 from the outside on the road, the suspension articulates a massive amount.

The M suspension is a little stiffer, different camber and caster, slightly lower. The caster probably makes the most difference to the tramlining only because of the inherent straight line stability/self centreing you get with more caster.

Mr Silver · Post by **Mr Silver** » Thu 17 Feb, 2011 08:23

I hear what you're saying c_w and I have to agree. The only downside to the z3 as far as I'm concerned is the damned tramlining issue. If that could be cured it would be unbeatable (and its value would increase dramatically I suspect)!

Many M owners suggest that the M doesn't suffer to the same degree. If that is fact, why can we not convert the relevant suspension components on the non-M. The body is the same, and the caster can be easily modified. Wishbone should be OK, roll bar is less imortant.

Maybe we should start a thread to research this more? Interested to hear your comments.

Regards.

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Thu 17 Feb, 2011 11:46

I can honestly say i have never suffered with this tramlining issue.

I have replaced all the suspension and bushes, from the outset, and the car drives and handles great. I have some negative camber dialed in at the front and the car does sit lower, but the ride quality is fine. I also run 18" wheels.

I must just be lucky i guess

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Thu 17 Feb, 2011 14:43

I think the amount does vary car to car but also due to suspension condition/setup/tyres as discussed but they all exhibit it. The other factor is of course the driver, some more sensitive to it than others!

Is it a naturally camber sensitive car ?

Is it a naturally camber sensitive car ?

Re: Is it a naturally camber sensitive car ?