re mapping

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pete59
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
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re mapping

Post by pete59 » Fri 09 Sep, 2011 21:45

would having your zed re mapped ,have any long term effect on the life of your engine.

billz
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Post by billz » Fri 09 Sep, 2011 22:07

Not as far as i know. It should not only gain you slight BHP but also increase your fuel efficiency and should make it more responsive on the throttle.
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stu
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Post by stu » Sat 10 Sep, 2011 09:59

If it's a quality map (maintains a sensible mixture under all conditions) and you don't bounce the revs off the raised limiter, it should have no adverse affect IMHO.
someone in a minority once wrote:I know I'm in a minority
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pete59
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Post by pete59 » Sat 10 Sep, 2011 16:58

its by Eco power,elite remaps and costs £249,but on offer for £200 and they will do it at home or work,also a guarantee.and look a good company.

billz
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Post by billz » Sat 10 Sep, 2011 17:05

I wouldnt get a remap unless it included a rolling road as then you can actually see the difference during the dyno runs. Quite a few on here have used Evolve who are very good and includes dyno. How do you know what has been gained without the proof of a dyno.
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pete59
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
Location: newark

Post by pete59 » Sat 10 Sep, 2011 18:36

very good point,i will ask that very question when i ring for info,many thanks.

pete59
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
Location: newark

Post by pete59 » Sat 10 Sep, 2011 18:36

very good point,i will ask that very question when i ring for info,many thanks.

Mr Silver
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i

Post by Mr Silver » Sun 11 Sep, 2011 10:05

Apologies but I have a problem believing that the guys providing these remaps are better than BMW at getting the best out of my Z3!

Just my opinion.


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jayson f
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Post by jayson f » Sun 11 Sep, 2011 10:43

When the cars leave the factory they have a base map for european conditions , ie fuel octane ect all a remap does is release the power the engine has from the factory its not magic! These are mass produced engines churned out by the thousands, BMW have targets to hit and one of them is not refining there maps for an extra 15-20 bhp. But getting a well known company to remap a 10 year old car with up to date mapping equipment will see better bhp and torque and even more mpg. :D and that cant be a bad thing me thinks

Mr Silver
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i

Post by Mr Silver » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 08:15

Aah... So what you're saying is that a manufacturer of high performance cars (and sports cars), ie BMW, with Audi, Mercedes and VW as direct competition, would not be fussed if the output of their engines was up to (in some cases) 20% low, even though they had developed electronic engine timing and variable valve timing to provide precision adjustment of...

...oh yes, engine performance!!!



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Guest

  

Post by Guest » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 08:53

That's exactly what they do. The ECU will be mapped to a generic performance level that the manufacturer deems appropriate for a car that will be sold by the thousands.

No manufacturer releases a model tuned to ragged edge, thay always leave them with a balance of performance and economy in order that if necessary changes can be made according to feedback from the market, mid life facelifts and so on without having to invest millions in developing new ECU's.

There is a guy here at our office who has just mapped a Lamborghini Gallardo to add another 175 bhp, so you think this is exclusive to mainstream manufacturers? It's not, not by a long chalk.

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Z3C
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  Z3 coupe 3.0i
Location: Turku

Post by Z3C » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 10:57

jayson f wrote:When the cars leave the factory they have a base map for european conditions , ie fuel octane ect all a remap does is release the power the engine has from the factory its not magic! These are mass produced engines churned out by the thousands, BMW have targets to hit and one of them is not refining there maps for an extra 15-20 bhp. But getting a well known company to remap a 10 year old car with up to date mapping equipment will see better bhp and torque and even more mpg. :D and that cant be a bad thing me thinks
Sorry but I'm with Silver on this. I can see how the top BHP can be improved but I don't believe it can be done without sacrificing durability or mid range torque, or both! You really are better off to trust the BMW R&D on this than an aftermarker shop.

What comes to improved torque and MPG, frankly I wouldn't believe in any such statemets at all! Improved MPG is achieved with improved mid and low range torgue. This is also what makes the car feel more powerfull in every day use(ultimately what you are looking for, unless you are building a track car) and car manufacturers are not compromising mid and low range torque for any other reason but durability. The whole engine, from bore/stroke relation to throttle valve diameter is designed to optimize low and mid range torque. So after BMW engineers are done, there is really nothing left to improve. :shrug

As an example, we can compare the M54 and later generation N53 engines with 3,0l displacement. The max torques in these engines are:
M54 - 300Nm (3500 rpm)
N53 - 320Nm (2750 - 3000 rpm)
So all the improvements of N53, which is a completely new engine and which has a direct injection system (BIG deal!!) have produced 20Nm of additional torque = 6,7% improvement over the M54! :|

Taking all this into consideration, it's difficult for me to see how torque and especially the MPG can be improved only with a new engine map! :puzzle:

Sorry for the debate but I think that this is an interesting topic. I'd really love it if someone counld "educate" me and prove me wrong. I would be the first in line to get my remap. But for know, I really don't see any sence in it (for now ... 8-) )
O_7777 :drive:

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Gazza
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Post by Gazza » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 12:51

Been there, done it, it works

There are countless threads about Remapping, do a search :)
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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siwilson
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Post by siwilson » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 13:04

Generic maps are a compromise to give the 'best' out of every engine under a wide variety of conditions. They balance performance with emissions, fuel economy and reliability. They have to take into account different octane levels in fuel and also different ambient conditions. They are also VERY mindful of an engine's performance within their own product range. remember when the4 325 was called a 323 to make sure the 328 sold and how the performance of the 2.5 liter lump went up when the 2.8 was replaced with the 3.0?

I also suspect BMW use the same MAP for say the M54 engine regardless of which car it is installed in, yet the Z3 has a very different induction and exhaust system to the E39 or E46. The generic map is probably designed to adjust for the different setups.

All you are doing with a good map is tuning the car to give the best for your specific engine in its particular installation and a particular set of conditions. Get it wrong (too lean) and you can do serious damage. Get it right and not only will you see a small (5%) improvement, but probably better economy and long term reliability as well.

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jayson f
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: colchester

Post by jayson f » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 15:58

when cars run of the production line they dont rolling road every car it would be suicide for the company, my engine in my Z3 is the 3.0 which they put into the 3 series the 5 series the x series and the Z3 the map for all these cars with this engine are probably the same. by having you car remaped with a rolling road session and good octane fuel can help release the engines true potential. several car companys offer sports packages which up the power of the car my friend has a fiat 500 he had a fiat sports pack fitted to his 1 year old car by fiat which included a new exhaust and a remap. This was done by the main dealer!!! so to say remapping is no good is crazy thousands of people have there cars done every year. I know there are a lot of cowboys doing this but if its done well with a rolling road session it can help all round perfomance.

luckycolourblue
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Post by luckycolourblue » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 16:22

Rusty zed wrote:
There is a guy here at our office who has just mapped a Lamborghini Gallardo to add another 175 bhp, so you think this is exclusive to mainstream manufacturers? It's not, not by a long chalk.
Are you sure about this??? It sounds like serious pub talk to me :roll:

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Post by Guest » Mon 12 Sep, 2011 16:35

Why would I lie?

I may have the BHP wrong, as it was writtren from memory, but the fact remains a friend of mine with a Gallardo spyder in my office building had a big old remap on his supercar. He also did the same with his Maserati GT MC stradale.

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Z3C
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  Z3 coupe 3.0i
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Post by Z3C » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 06:13

Thats all very interesting! Does anyone have a bit more facts like BHP/Torque figures before and after? Maybe a dynochart?
I'm difficult to convince :lol:
O_7777 :drive:

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Gazza
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Post by Gazza » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 08:32

Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Z3cade
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Post by Z3cade » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 08:49

Remapping works...
Our second car.. A vw polo tdi has been remapped..
It was 100bhp & 170ft lbs torque as standard and returned upto 55mpg

now its 140bhp & 240ft lbs toque and can return 62mpg

Higher power gains are acheived from turbo charged cars.. But it has the same effect on non turbo cars like our bmws.. Improved power and mpg as the engines mapped to the best performace it can acheive..
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Z3C
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  Z3 coupe 3.0i
Location: Turku

Post by Z3C » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 10:09

I found some interesting info regarding remapping from the homepage of one remapping producer here in finland. (http://www.hestec.fi/index.php) The original text is in Finnish, but what they are saying is following: :rtm:

In a naturally aspirated engine, the increase in power (low and mid range rpm) is achieved through changed mixture ratio (lambda value). By making the mixture rich, the combustion process becomes faster which allow for reduced ignition advance. (PS: rich mixture also induces more complete utilization of air but the reduced ignition advance probably has more impact on the power).

As we all know, catalytic converters don’t do well with lambda values wich deviate even slightly from the optimum “1,00”. This problem is solved with two control maps, one for full throttle conditions (FTC) and one for part throttle conditions(PTC). The rich mixture is used only under FTC. Under PTC the engine is tuned for optimum MPG. They mention that lean mixture will improve MPG but it’s unclear wheather they use this method under PTC or not.

They also mention that they can do additional little tweaks like for example reducing the knocking margin in conditions, where optimum ignition advance is controlled by the knocking limit.

So there you go. To me it’s very clear that these changes don’t really improve engine durality(which isn’t really a surprise to anyone). It’s another story though how significant the impact on reliability is.

Comments anyone?
O_7777 :drive:

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RemarkLima
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Post by RemarkLima » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 10:30

A point to remember, as said manufactures will take a conservative map;

Some countries do not have the same quality fuel as western Europe

Emissions regs are more then CO2, and while we can remap and just worry about the CO2 output they need to worry about the NOX, Sulphur etc etc etc... So the map will have to address that.

Some maps will be in place for tax laws, i.e. a slight detune will drop the car into a lower tax bracket and therefore make it more appealing to sell (this can be from different markets to ours).

Other maps will be "retarted" to allow the same basic engine to be used in the next model, with a new map for more power (every new model needs more power!), saving them a fortune on developing a new engine.

So yeah, lots of reason why a manufacturers map would be "perfect"... A classic example, I used to have a Twin Turbo RX7 and the stock map actually dropped the boost when the 2nd turbo cut in before giving it full beans again... Why? So you felt the kick in the pants when it happened, no other reason and very easy to map out ;)
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Z3cade
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Post by Z3cade » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 11:28

The coment regards detuning some engines are true.. Like the 2.8s were detuned using a restricted inlet manifold.. This was done purely for tax band and imisions issues.. Hence why the later 2.5 engines had the same power as a 2.8... as they wernt restricted...

So engines arnt always mapped/designed for maxinum performance..
A remap just releases the optimum performance from that engine..
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Z3C
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Post by Z3C » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 12:03

Has anyone tried to remap an M54B30? What sort of results can be expected?
O_7777 :drive:

luckycolourblue
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Post by luckycolourblue » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 12:44

Rusty zed wrote:Why would I lie?

I may have the BHP wrong, as it was writtren from memory, but the fact remains a friend of mine with a Gallardo spyder in my office building had a big old remap on his supercar. He also did the same with his Maserati GT MC stradale.
Ok, sounds better, maybe there should have been a decimal point after the 17 :thumb:

Guest

  

Post by Guest » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 13:04

I bumped into him last night - actually an additional 75.

luckycolourblue
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Post by luckycolourblue » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 15:42

Rusty zed wrote:I bumped into him last night - actually an additional 75.
Were you in the pub again???

pete59
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
Location: newark

Post by pete59 » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 16:38

well just had mot today and service,i have been told the engines in great cond all round and runs very clean,so ill stick with that,i surrpose if i want more then its got to be the king of zeds a z3m.thanks for all the advise ect.

Guest

  

Post by Guest » Tue 13 Sep, 2011 18:58

Sorry to be late to this discussion.........................I can confirm that OEm engine mapping is done to optimise general driving conditions, but is also optimised for the induction and exhaust onthe engine.

Based on this mapping a standard engine will have very little effect on the low to mid range performance of the car, the changes come with the fueling and limiters at the top end. so you may find the car a bit faster on top end. They will also on a standard engine refine the curves for your specific engine and components to remove flat spots, so the car appears more responsive.

The real gains on remapping come when you have changed the induction and and exhaust of your car, you can now get more air in and exhaust the gases quicker. However the effect is notnoticeable as the map will restrict the performance. Remapping in this instance will create a jumpe up in the curve position on BHP and Torque and give a performance gain across the whole range.

Improved MPG..............................guys i am afraid this all down to your right foot, and not re-mapping, driving sensible will mean great MPG, pressing the loud pedal will mean more fuel in the engine, after all the loud pedal is just a fuel tap!

Durability of the engine following remap.....................well just depends how well it has been looked after, poor oil services will see bearings wearing, more power will accelerate the wear. A well looked after engine will last just as long as the normal engine as the power gains and loads on the engine will not be that great, as opposed to adding a turbo or a blower, which will raise the compression and hence load.

I personally will be getting a remap in order to get the best from my induction and exhaust mods, otherwise it will have bene a waste of money adding them.

Mike Fishwick
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Daglan, France

Remapping

Post by Mike Fishwick » Wed 14 Sep, 2011 17:22

Remapping works well, with no snags. The theory is that the manufacturer finds the optimum setings in terms of power, torque, and economy, but then has to adjust them to meet criteria such as exhaust emissions, and in particular those involving oxides of nitrogen (NOx) which are formed during the peak temperature of the combustion process.

This means that the easiest way to meet the emission regs is by richening the mixture, and retarding the ignition timing, neither of which do anything for maintining peak efficiency.

Once the engine is in production, the tests in European countires, such as the MoT, TuV, and Controle Technique etc, only check on emissions of carbon monoxide (CO) and - in the UK - unburnt hydrocarbons, but NOT NOx.

In some cases the power output may also have been reduced to satisfy power limitations imposed my insurance categories and other legislation.

This means that a remap can re-set the engine efficiency to its original level, irrespective of the increased NOx levels, so bringing improvements in power, torque, and fuel economy.

The best remap is one which after downloading the new program to the car's management system is subsequently adjusted on a rolling road - known as a Live Remap - which will usually gain a little over a basic (generic) remap.

However, a company which has plenty of experience of your particular engine will have optimised their program on a rolling road anyway. As engines of the same type are usually within a few horsepower of each other, the benefit of a live remap will be limited, unless you have modified the engine with different manifolds (inlet or exhaust) a larger throttle body, or different camshafts etc.

The current market leader seems to be Chipped UK, but my 2.8 Z3 was given a live remap by our local Superchips dealer about ten years ago, and it gained about 7 bhp, 10 lb-ft, and about a 10% improvement in fuel economy.

Although the peak power and torque gains for a normally-aspirated petrol engine are seldom more than 10%, or less if the original mapping was as close to the optimum as possible. The gains in the mid range are, however, proportionately higher, making the car more drivable and a lot more economic.

Do not expect miracles, such as are possible on a good turbocharged diesel! Our 1.9 litre Golf TDI was remapped by AMD of Bicester, and went from 115 bhp / 210 lb-ft to 165bhp / 275 lb-ft with even better fuel economy. The torque curve is now flat from 2000 rpm to 4000 rom, so it it pulls sixth gear (35 mph/1000 rpm) happily from 40 mph to 125 mph+, and will effortlessly out-accellerate just about anything it meets. The future is here - and it's diesel powered!

As with the standard map, the modified one is optimised for 98 octane, so before it is done, run the tank down and fill up with 97/98 octane fuel, after finding the best available locally in terms of fuel consumption at a steady speed on a flat road, such as on a motorway. From my experience of UK fuels, I would suggest Esso 97 octane as being the best.

I usually get 37 mpg at 70 mph on UK motorways using Esso 97 octane fuel, and 34 mpg at 80 mph in France, using supermarket 98 octane - in France this is just as good as 'real' petrol. At lower speeds it is outstandingly good - on a 220 mile run from Gap, in the French Alps, to a point south of Clermont-Ferrand, all on country roads at about 60 mph, with a little overtaking, it managed 42 mpg!

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Re: Remapping

Post by Guest » Wed 14 Sep, 2011 20:34

Mike Fishwick wrote:
The best remap is one which after downloading the new program to the car's management system is subsequently adjusted on a rolling road - known as a Live Remap - which will usually gain a little over a basic (generic) remap.
Read a post earlier, where someone said they were fed up with people recommending rolling roads, and to just get out there and drive!!! :D

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pingu
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Post by pingu » Wed 14 Sep, 2011 21:14

In my opinion, the remap should be the very LAST modification that you do to the engine. It is the modern equivalent of adjusting the carburettor and distributor.

My recommendation is to fully optimise the engine by modifying, adjusting and servicing it to the desired configuration. Fuel it with the desired fuel (at least 500 miles worth [2 tanks] of driving to purge any old fuel). Fully service the engine and fit a new air filter just before the remap and have a live remap on a rolling road. That will optimise YOUR engine.

A generic remap is only the equivalent of adjusting the carb and dizzy to "yeah, that'll do".

Every component has a tolerance and optimising these tolerances is the key to releasing performance, be it for power, torque or economy.
Pingu

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