Engine rattle

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RHM5Y
Joined: Fri 29 Apr, 2011 13:23
Posts: 11

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Engine rattle

Post by RHM5Y »

Hi all, i have had my Z3 for a year now and since then been trying to trace the source of a rattle from the engine. The car is a W reg 2.0 litre 2000 model with 49000 miles on the clock.
The noise appears to be coming from the oil filter housing,and sounds like a lolly stick in the spokes of a bicycle wheel when revved(as someone described it).The noise has no effect on performance, just embarrassing until it is fully warmed. Noise only appears after the car has been started a second time during the same day not first thing in the morning.
I slowly removed the lid from the oil filter housing today and was surprised to find that no oil leaked out.It appears that there's not enough oil in there but the dipstick is bang on. Confused i checked my M5 (E39) to find that the filter housing is full of oil.
Any ideas.
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Heath
Joined: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 23:35
Posts: 112

  Z3 roadster 2.0
Location: Burton on Trent

Engine rattle

Post by Heath »

They have little rubber O rings in there somewhere to stop the oil running back they probably need replacing. Someone with better knowledge should be able to tell you exactly where they are.


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XVar
Joined: Thu 24 Mar, 2011 17:58
Posts: 475

  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Derby

Re: Engine rattle

Post by XVar »

The filter cap that you unscrew has two o-rings at the bottom of the spike that seal the filter compartment, and oil drains into the sump when you unscrew it. So no oil in the filter housing is normal I believe.
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RHM5Y
Joined: Fri 29 Apr, 2011 13:23
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Re: Engine rattle

Post by RHM5Y »

I'll do another oil change - using Edge 5w 30- at the weekend and change the two rubber washers to see if it makes a difference. I changed the oil as soon as i got the car.
Thanks for the info on the empty reservoir, at least that's normal.
swamper
Joined: Thu 13 May, 2010 17:14
Posts: 1866

  M roadster S50
Location: Mossley

Re: Engine rattle

Post by swamper »

O rings....
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=11&fg=30

but it sound like it could be a noisy lifter?
the badness makes me do it...!

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Zedbedee
Joined: Sun 15 Mar, 2009 20:04
Posts: 157

  Z3 roadster 2.0
Location: Yeovil

Re: Engine rattle

Post by Zedbedee »

I have had that noise on my 2 litre V reg. I have owned the car for just over 3 years and replacing the thermostat and a few frequent oil changes have reduced the noise to next to nothing for about a mile when cold. Once hot the negine runs really smoothly. I have never seen a post which clearly defines what the noise is but I am convinced that it comes from the vanos. Your 2 litre car will have the M52TU engine with the double vanos system. On each camshaft there is a piston assembly which moves axially under oil pressure relative to the camshafts and by means of a helical spline varies the cam timing. As the pistons do not rotate but the camshaft does the thrust is transmitted through a thrust ball bearing on each shaft. I don't believe these are the finest ball bearings in the world and when cold can have excess clearance leading to the noise, especially at about 1800 rpm. Good lubricant circulation can minimise the noise until the engine reaches operating temperature when things expand and settle down. There is a company called Beisan Systems which sells a kit to adjust the bearings and remove the noise. I have been tempted to give it a try but would like to hear from someone who has done it before. My experience is that, with proper maintenance, the noise has reduced rather than get worse over time and I believe you could live with it for some time just taking it gently for the first mile in the morning.
Hope this has been helpful.
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peteslag
Joined: Thu 04 Aug, 2011 07:50
Posts: 145

  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: wolverhampton

Re: Engine rattle

Post by peteslag »

Zedbedee wrote:I have had that noise on my 2 litre V reg. I have owned the car for just over 3 years and replacing the thermostat and a few frequent oil changes have reduced the noise to next to nothing for about a mile when cold. Once hot the negine runs really smoothly. I have never seen a post which clearly defines what the noise is but I am convinced that it comes from the vanos. Your 2 litre car will have the M52TU engine with the double vanos system. On each camshaft there is a piston assembly which moves axially under oil pressure relative to the camshafts and by means of a helical spline varies the cam timing. As the pistons do not rotate but the camshaft does the thrust is transmitted through a thrust ball bearing on each shaft. I don't believe these are the finest ball bearings in the world and when cold can have excess clearance leading to the noise, especially at about 1800 rpm. Good lubricant circulation can minimise the noise until the engine reaches operating temperature when things expand and settle down. There is a company called Beisan Systems which sells a kit to adjust the bearings and remove the noise. I have been tempted to give it a try but would like to hear from someone who has done it before. My experience is that, with proper maintenance, the noise has reduced rather than get worse over time and I believe you could live with it for some time just taking it gently for the first mile in the morning.
Hope this has been helpful.
I went to look at an M3 last year, the first thing I noticed was a "lolly pop in spokes" kind of noise coming from the engine. If was difficult to work out exactly where the noise was coming from so I used a screw driver as a stethoscope. Basically, put the fat end to your ear and the pointy end on various engine components until you find the noise. Unfortunately for the M3 owner, it was the vanos on this occasion so what Zebedee says makes a lot of sense.
Z3 3.0, Ford ST220, Jaguar XK8, Mr2 GT Turbo, Fiat Bravo HGT, Cavalier, Astra convertible, MK1 Astra GTE, XR3i, E21 323i, XR3, Cavalier, VW Jetta, Rover SDi, Capri 2.0S, Audi 80 GTE, another Cavalier, brown Astra van, Citroen GS Club (we all had to start somewhere).
RHM5Y
Joined: Fri 29 Apr, 2011 13:23
Posts: 11

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Re: Engine rattle

Post by RHM5Y »

Zedbedee wrote:I have had that noise on my 2 litre V reg. I have owned the car for just over 3 years and replacing the thermostat and a few frequent oil changes have reduced the noise to next to nothing for about a mile when cold. Once hot the negine runs really smoothly. I have never seen a post which clearly defines what the noise is but I am convinced that it comes from the vanos. Your 2 litre car will have the M52TU engine with the double vanos system. On each camshaft there is a piston assembly which moves axially under oil pressure relative to the camshafts and by means of a helical spline varies the cam timing. As the pistons do not rotate but the camshaft does the thrust is transmitted through a thrust ball bearing on each shaft. I don't believe these are the finest ball bearings in the world and when cold can have excess clearance leading to the noise, especially at about 1800 rpm. Good lubricant circulation can minimise the noise until the engine reaches operating temperature when things expand and settle down. There is a company called Beisan Systems which sells a kit to adjust the bearings and remove the noise. I have been tempted to give it a try but would like to hear from someone who has done it before. My experience is that, with proper maintenance, the noise has reduced rather than get worse over time and I believe you could live with it for some time just taking it gently for the first mile in the morning.
Hope this has been helpful.
Thanks, that has been helpful. My rattle noise is never there on first start-up whether morning or night. I tracked the noise by listening with large screwdriver and it is definitely coming from the oil filter housing. I'll be picking-up the O rings in the morning and hope to change the oil again but this time using oil for Diesel engine cars as suggested elsewhere.
Took a look at the Beisan Systems web site and willing to try that if all else fails, perfect excuse to get out of the house hold chores.
Peteslag thanks for the tip re the screwdriver.
stevesace
Joined: Sat 12 Mar, 2011 23:04
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Re: Engine rattle

Post by stevesace »

my twin vanos has got this rattle as it warms up, i bought a set of seals and spacers for it too just havent got round to fitting them yet.. it supposedly sorts it out completely.
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Devon Z
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Joined: Thu 20 Nov, 2003 21:39
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
Location: Brixham, Devon

Re: Engine rattle

Post by Devon Z »

This seems to be a problem mine dos'nt have :lol:
Makes a change :)
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RHM5Y
Joined: Fri 29 Apr, 2011 13:23
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Re: Engine rattle

Post by RHM5Y »

Devon Z wrote:This seems to be a problem mine dos'nt have :lol:
Makes a change :)
Your very lucky. Last week i changed the oil for diesel engine oil, fitted a new filter with new o rings and the noise disappeared..... for about 30 miles of town driving.
Its now back as it was, fine first thing but when started later the same day the rattle comes back.
As i've traced the noise to the oil filter housing can anyone tell me if there's any moving parts in there.
I've changed the tensioner previously.
Any ideas.
swamper
Joined: Thu 13 May, 2010 17:14
Posts: 1866

  M roadster S50
Location: Mossley

Re: Engine rattle

Post by swamper »

the only moving part im aware of in their is the non return valve.
just done mine so have pics of it.
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as for the oil i would give it chance to start cleaning before i'd look at anything else..it will start to move the gunk if you keep with it
the badness makes me do it...!

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RHM5Y
Joined: Fri 29 Apr, 2011 13:23
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Re: Engine rattle

Post by RHM5Y »

Thanks swamper, i'll leave the oil for a thousand miles or so and see how things are then.
Mike Fishwick
Joined: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 10:27
Posts: 2093

  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Daglan, France

Rattle

Post by Mike Fishwick »

It is possible that your noise is caused by pulsation in the oil crcuit - akin to shock waves - as the pump operates. This is more prevalent when the oil is cold, as it can cause the oil pressure relief valve to open and close violently, and has been known to make an odd noise when the engine is cold on older 3 Series models. As the relief valve is in the oil pump housing, it is a major job to even look at it.

I too would suggest keeping running the car on your current diesel/petrol engine oil, and see if the noise goes away. If the car has been cursed with a lot of short cold running, and servicing as per the Service Indicator lights - it will have accumulated a lot of sludge which will not clear overnight. Remember that garages now usually suck the old oil out, often when it is cold, which leaves plaenty of sludge to settle out an accumulate.
A Z3 is not just for Christmas - it's for life!
RHM5Y
Joined: Fri 29 Apr, 2011 13:23
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Re: Rattle

Post by RHM5Y »

Mike Fishwick wrote:It is possible that your noise is caused by pulsation in the oil crcuit - akin to shock waves - as the pump operates. This is more prevalent when the oil is cold, as it can cause the oil pressure relief valve to open and close violently, and has been known to make an odd noise when the engine is cold on older 3 Series models. As the relief valve is in the oil pump housing, it is a major job to even look at it.

I too would suggest keeping running the car on your current diesel/petrol engine oil, and see if the noise goes away. If the car has been cursed with a lot of short cold running, and servicing as per the Service Indicator lights - it will have accumulated a lot of sludge which will not clear overnight. Remember that garages now usually suck the old oil out, often when it is cold, which leaves plaenty of sludge to settle out an accumulate.
Thanks for that.
Noticed that the rattle is there after around a few minutes starting, once fully warmed the rattle is gone.
Forgot to mention i changed the water pump and thermostat when i first bought the car.
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