Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

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Bonzo
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Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Bonzo » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 15:50

When I bought Zelda, almost a year ago to the day, she had fairly new Avon ZV5's on the rear and Michelins on the front. She liked to tramline on country lanes, and on some other roads as well. As the Michelins were getting a little low, This morning I went and had new ZV5's fitted on the front, and on the way home it was like driving another car, so different. No tugging on the steering wheel, it just felt so smooth and predictable. I am such a happier man..... RESULT! :D :D :D

Top down there and back as well, not the predicted precipitation.... Luuverly.

Cheers all, :cheers

Bonzo.
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.

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Gazza
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Gazza » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 16:06

Remember to scrub the tyres in for about 300-500 miles before giving it the beans into a corner/bend :wink:
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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OldskoolRS
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by OldskoolRS » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 17:23

Almost had to check that this wasn't something I posted myself: I bought my Z3 a year ago and it tramlined a bit, so like you I swapped the Avon ZV5s from the back to the front and put the Michelins on the back instead. Tramlining much improved (I've also replaced some bushes and fitted a strut brace too).

I was going to buy some bigger alloys so haven't rushed to replace the rear Michelins as they still have about 3mm of tread left, but I can't seem to find any secondhand alloys with decent tyres already fitted and can't justify the cost of 4 secondhand alloys, plus a set of new 18" tyres. I think I'll be buying a pair of matching ZV5s for the rear in the near future especially since you've confirmed my findings.

Just wondering if I should fit the new AV5s to the front and move the part worn AV5s to the back (5-6mm tread)?

cooknerkid
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  Z3 roadster 2.8

Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by cooknerkid » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 17:37

I bought the Zed about 2 yrs ago now, and with 18'' alloys on it, it did suffer the dreaded tramlining- I put 2x rear springs, some new PVC bushes on rear of front subframe and new droplinks and new ball joints/track rod ends, but this didnt seem to make much difference. I then put new Falkens all round , and noticed the tramlining was much better, and since then have bought a Strut brace, but I didnt feel it improved much more( but that was November and only done about 15 miles since :( !!!!!) Hoping to see a bit of sun to proper try it out soon - 1500 miles through France last summer and I dont remember any tramlining- was this because I was loaded up?,or are the French roads better ????

Del
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Del » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 18:03

I’ve changed my front wishbones including the bushes, experimented with tyre pressures, fitted new shock absorbers all round, had the tracking checked twice and fitted a strut brace (not an easy find for the M44 engine). The car now goes around corners great but I still have tramlining on my 17 inch wheels. The only thing I haven’t done is change the front tyres.

People say they couldn’t have tramlined when they came off the production line – I’m not so sure as the attached 1998 review by an Australian motoring organisation states the model tested tramlined.

I’ll put these Avon ZV5s on my shopping list - thanks for the pointer.

http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring/revie ... adster.htm

Trevsky
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Trevsky » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 18:10

I'm not sure it's the make of tyre that makes the difference just the fact that new tyres are fiited. I fitted new set of Matador MP46 Hectorra 2s and the difference is amazing.

Del
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Del » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 18:25

I have read so many postings on this forum suggesting that the Z3 is tyre sensitive when it comes to tramlining – can it be put down to simply a new tyre v old tyre?

I notice the Avon ZV5 has a non-uniform tread pattern across the tyre. Is this perhaps the feature that helps with tramlining? I’m not a tyre expert – any views?

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Bonzo
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Bonzo » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 18:50

Gazza wrote:Remember to scrub the tyres in for about 300-500 miles before giving it the beans into a corner/bend :wink:
I did know that, but thanks for the jog Gazza. :D
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.

geminimustang
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by geminimustang » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 19:23

When we purchased the zed, it had 17" wheels on and tramlined.Replaced with 16" wheels and much improved.

Bonzo
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Bonzo » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 19:27

Just wondering if I should fit the new AV5s to the front and move the part worn AV5s to the back (5-6mm tread)?[/quote]

Personally, I would fit the new tyres to the front for better directional control, especially in the wet.

Cheers,

Bonzo
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.

Bonzo
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Bonzo » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 19:35

Of course a 2.8 has a lot more weight than a 1.9 over the front wheels, so perhaps what worked for me might not be so effective for you with the 1.9 engine. Who Knows? :?

Cheers, Bonzo.
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.

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dennisedlin
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by dennisedlin » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 20:51

Always had some tramlining on 18's and the current 17's in my 2.8. As we don't do many miles we have only just recently had to change the front tyres (Goodyear F1) for Yokohama C Drive 2.

The car is unbelievable. There is absolutely no tramlining on any surface, the car feels secure and planted with great feel. I never thought a Z3 could drive like this. I was considering moving on this year but this has redeemed the old girl for another year at least. 14 years old 64000 miles up and now a pleasure to burn fuel at heading for £7 a gallon :)
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billz
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by billz » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 21:14

Personaly i would fit the bew tyres ti the rear for 2 reasons.
1 the rears wear a lot quicker than the feont and 2 it is the back end on the z that requires the better grip as that is where it will try to step out if it can. If it was a front wheel drive car then i would say yes swap the part worn ones to the rear. But thats my opinion and also i do tend to push it every now and then :grin:

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Del
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Del » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 21:30

dennisedlin wrote:The car is unbelievable. There is absolutely no tramlining on any surface,
dennisedlin wrote:had to change the front tyres (Goodyear F1) for Yokohama C Drive 2.
Tread pattern similar to the Avon ZV5 in that it is not uniform across the width of the tyre?

Yokohama C Drice 2

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Robert T
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Robert T » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 21:39

Del wrote:I have read so many postings on this forum suggesting that the Z3 is tyre sensitive when it comes to tramlining – can it be put down to simply a new tyre v old tyre?
Yes it can. I replaced my Michelins Primacy HPs with another set of Michelins Primacy HPs and the tramlining problem was much improved. It seems to start to come back as the tyres wear by a few mm.

Cheers R.
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Del
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Del » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 21:45

Could it be that these “asymmetric” tyres (the 2 pictures above) also help to eliminate tramlining?

Asymmetric tyres: - “The outside edge consists of large stiffer tread blocks which help with cornering. The inner tread blocks are smaller and designed to shift water and improve wet grip. The middle of the tread usually has a continuous rib to help straight line stability.”

Bonzo
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Bonzo » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 23:45

billz wrote:Personaly i would fit the bew tyres ti the rear for 2 reasons.
1 the rears wear a lot quicker than the feont and 2 it is the back end on the z that requires the better grip as that is where it will try to step out if it can. If it was a front wheel drive car then i would say yes swap the part worn ones to the rear. But thats my opinion and also i do tend to push it every now and then :grin:

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Yeah, but if the back end does go, you surely want the fronts to be good for immediate grip to correct? Who knows what is best. As long as you have enough tread ..........?

Bonzo.
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.

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OldskoolRS
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by OldskoolRS » Sun 10 Mar, 2013 09:49

I'm thinking more in terms of the new tyres on the front to maximise any improvement in tramlining (if the part worns aren't 100% evenly worn then they might be more prone to tramlining maybe?).

Anyway, my plan is to replace the front wishbones in the better weather (since my RS2000 is still sat in the garage :oops: so the Z3 has to worked on outside) then get the new tyres and tracking done at the same time to optimise the set up.

Mike Fishwick
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Mike Fishwick » Sun 10 Mar, 2013 11:05

I bought my 2.8 when it was less than 13000 miles old, on the original 17 inch Michelin Pilot Sports, and it tramlined badly on poor road surfaces. The dealer gave me their usual uninterested 'They all do that Sir' routine, and I put up with it. After replacing the Pilots with Falken FK-451 it still leapt all over the place, although everything underneath the car seemed fine.

Eventually I tried fitting Powerflex poly bushes to replace the purposely-flexible rubber bushes at the back of the wishbones - and the problem was gone. The almost-solid rubber bushes used on the M3 would have had the same effect, and it makes one wonder why BMW fitted 17 inch tyres with stiff sidewalls and the original flexible wishbone bushes - or why they fitted such unsuitable bushes to a sports car at all. My experience does not say much for either the integrity or product knowledge of the local dealer (Ocean of Plymouth) or the level of development driving and engineering by BMW themselves, who never seemed to have asked themselves why they fitted a more rigid bush to the M3 etc. which are fitted with 17 inch tyres as standard equipment. To simply stick a set of 17 inch wheels on a car and then ignore the resultant complaints of the customers is the kind of treatment I would expect from a cowboy alloy wheel shop, not a major manufacturer and their dealers.

Yes - if everything is perfect, a Z3 will not usually tramline, but it only takes a soggy bush or uneven front tyre wear to make it do so. Tyre profile has something to do with it too, particularly on some motorways such as in Holland or Germany, where large trucks have produced tyre-width grooves along the road. In these cnditions a tyre with a curved shoulder will not react as badly as one with a square edge.
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OldskoolRS
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by OldskoolRS » Sun 10 Mar, 2013 19:19

Not in my case: My other cars are a 320d Touring and a 1979 Mk2 Escort RS2000...I think I know tramlining when I see/feel it. :wink:

Bonzo
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Bonzo » Sun 10 Mar, 2013 19:48

Me too! :shock: Sorry Zedonist!
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.

Del
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Del » Sun 10 Mar, 2013 20:27

When I first acquired my car in June 2011 it had recently had 2 Marangoni Mythos tyres put onto the front (225/45-94Y-17). It tramlined a bit but didn’t seem too bad and wasn’t particularly noticeable on motorways. In September 2011 it needed two new front shocks for the MOT and had two advisories in respect of the front/outer wishbone ball joints. My point being that with far from perfect front suspension, the tramlining was not that bad.

I have since renewed the front wishbones & bushes and the rear shocks plus had everything checked. However, the tramlining appears to have slowly worsened and the lorry ruts on the same motorways now cause an unpleasant steering sensation which I would not put down to traditional driver feedback. I have the same tyres on the front which have now done about 10,000 miles.

I now suspect it is a tyre issue. Two common themes run through threads on this and other forums: - 1) Certain tyres are worse for causing tramlining and 2) The tramlining gets worse as those particular tyres wear.

Bonzo
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Bonzo » Sun 10 Mar, 2013 21:53

Is it worse if you have 17" wheels as opposed to 16" wheels, as geminimustang mentioned in a previous reply? Obviously in his case, but anyone out there with 16" wheels suffering from tramlining?

Bonzo.
Z3lda (Zelda), 1998 2.8, Montreal Blue, Beige Oregon leather interior and M steering wheel, Sports Seats, Wood trim, Chrome Line Interior, Centre armrest with Cupholder, Alpina Softline wheels, Chromed Angel Eyes, De- tango'd, Rear stone guards, Sport aerial, ASC front strut brace, Strong Strut Butt Strut and Body Brace, Uprated brake fluid, Yellowstuff pads 78k.

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peterandjenny
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by peterandjenny » Mon 11 Mar, 2013 09:22

We had a set of pilot sports directional on our car when we first got it had a very disconnected from the road at times feel. replaced with non directional falkens and feels so much better. front end still will leap across white lines in the wet but otherwise much more predictable. Fitted falken 453's on the back at the weekend . will try them out once it gets warmer.

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Gazza
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by Gazza » Mon 11 Mar, 2013 10:22

I think it's a mix of all things mentioned so far.

Ican drive a certain section of road near my house and the Zed is pulled to the right, I recently replaced the fronts tyres and it isn't so bad, still there though. If I use the 330 or my van on the same section I don't notice a thing.
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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TitanTim
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by TitanTim » Mon 11 Mar, 2013 11:06

I think tyre and wheel choice has alot to do with it, I never suffered any tramlining on the original factory Style 78 17" alloys, 7.5 width fronts and 8.5 rears with Michelin Pilot Sports. When I swapped to the ACS alloys 8.5x18s front and rear with 225/40 fronts and 255/35 rears on Falken 452s I found at times the Zed would go all over the place depending on road surface and camber, sometimes uncomfortably so, I really don't think Zeds like 8.5 width on the front as a 225 tyre is slightly stretched. Since swapping to 8x18 front and rear on 225/40 all round Vredestein Quatrac 3 all season tyres the car drives like a dream. Driving the Z4 last week on 18" runflats made realise how comfortable the Z3 feels regarding tyre noise and ride.

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c_w
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Re: Tramlining?..... what tramlining?

Post by c_w » Mon 11 Mar, 2013 20:28

Mike Fishwick wrote:I bought my 2.8 when it was less than 13000 miles old, on the original 17 inch Michelin Pilot Sports, and it tramlined badly on poor road surfaces. The dealer gave me their usual uninterested 'They all do that Sir' routine, and I put up with it. After replacing the Pilots with Falken FK-451 it still leapt all over the place, although everything underneath the car seemed fine.

Eventually I tried fitting Powerflex poly bushes to replace the purposely-flexible rubber bushes at the back of the wishbones - and the problem was gone. The almost-solid rubber bushes used on the M3 would have had the same effect, and it makes one wonder why BMW fitted 17 inch tyres with stiff sidewalls and the original flexible wishbone bushes - or why they fitted such unsuitable bushes to a sports car at all. My experience does not say much for either the integrity or product knowledge of the local dealer (Ocean of Plymouth) or the level of development driving and engineering by BMW themselves, who never seemed to have asked themselves why they fitted a more rigid bush to the M3 etc. which are fitted with 17 inch tyres as standard equipment. To simply stick a set of 17 inch wheels on a car and then ignore the resultant complaints of the customers is the kind of treatment I would expect from a cowboy alloy wheel shop, not a major manufacturer and their dealers.

Yes - if everything is perfect, a Z3 will not usually tramline, but it only takes a soggy bush or uneven front tyre wear to make it do so. Tyre profile has something to do with it too, particularly on some motorways such as in Holland or Germany, where large trucks have produced tyre-width grooves along the road. In these cnditions a tyre with a curved shoulder will not react as badly as one with a square edge.
But this doesn't explain why an E36 3-series with an almost identical setup with 17s doesn't tramline. The Z3 does have inherent issues with tramlining to the point where tyre choice can affect it, the M version is noticeably better due to the stiffer bushing and caster but it still has a bit. My Coupe has none at all though, and even with a fair bit of negative camber it's still very driveable daily on all roads.

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