Steering wheel shudder

[Koolflyer]

Hi, I'm interested on your thoughts on this. My Nov 97 Z3 2.8 Roadster has an annoying shudder felt through the steering wheel. On a flat smooth road its fine, however once the car hits even a slight bump or uneven surface the steering tends to shudder and kind of dances through my hands, as if there is something lose up front. My local 'indy' has checked it over and cannot find anything wrong or lose. Perhaps somewhere within the steering there is some sort of dampening, but not sure on that?? I've had a number of BMW's, and I'm familiar with the tram lining problem which infact my Z3 does suffer from to a small extent. The tyres on front are Yokohama S306's (nearly new) and rear Falken Alzenis FK453's (new). Wheels have been balanced and tracked. Wishbone bushes have been changed to Power Flex PFF5 301 polyurathane ones. It's more of an annoyance than anything but would rather it didn't do it in the first place, as my friends 'Z' does not suffer from this problem. Any ideas would be appreciated....thanks.

[Southernboy]

There are several possibilities...
a). Wheel bearings. These may be slightly worn, and may not be felt on smooth roads.


b). The poly bushes you have fitted are considerably "stiffer" than OEM rubber. This may be transferring a sense of greater vibration through to the steering.


c). Propshaft Front Rubber coupling and Center bearing. If either of these components are faulty / worn it will cause a steering vibration sensation on uneven surfaces, yet be mostly undetected on smooth surfaces.


d). Gear box rear mounting. Although unlikely, it is worth checking.


e.) Steering coulumn universal joint. At the bottom of the column it joins the power steering rack via a small universal knuckle...check to ensure this is secure and in good condition.

Check the secure mounting of the power steering rack..


f). Suspension. This includes shock absorbers, springs, pads and top / bottom mounts.

[frog farmer]

Hi, I posted re this exact problem after fitting new wishbones to my 97' 2.8. the problem was not there before and I was hoping that getting the tracking checked this Tuesday would cure it. Mike Fishwick suggested fitting the poly bushes as it cured his, but you have them fitted ? So some more exploring is required as you are correct, it is not nice driving on uneven roads. Mel.

[Koolflyer]

Thanks guys for your response. I will have all those points checked by my 'indy' (cheers for that info Southernboy). The reason why I had the wishbone bushes replaced is because the problem was there before, and after balance and tracking it was the next thing to check, esp. after the tyre man said there was some play in those bushes. I think your right about about your comment on poly bushes, it might just be exaggerating the shudder a little more.

[Del]

I've seen a wide disparity of views on this forum about poly wishbone bushes. On one hand there are those who say they are fab and have cured their tramlining and on the other hand those who have said they have made no difference to the tramlining and made the ride harsher.

[TitanTim]

I think with the Z3 alot of tramlining issues are down the tyre choice which can be a factor, I think BMW fitted Continentals from the factory. I had Michelin PS2s on the Zed when I bought it and swapped to Falken 452s and it was definitely less happy with much more tramlining and unpleasantness. Now on Vredestein Quadrac 3 all seasons and no tramling at all and a happy Zed.

Tim.

[Southernboy]

Poly doodle all the day........I've heard of "squeaky" steering as well as the feeling of excessive solidity in the steering wheel...or by contrast less dampening through the steering. Also, if you're running on dropped suspension that undoubetedly has a "hardening" sensation which is transmitted through the steering... I have the Eibach sportline springs fitted, and I have noticed that when cornering on a fairly rough surface of "rapid" vibration frequency, the steering judders uncomfrtably...It has led me to the decision to return to the OEM springs and I'll also save a packet having my spoiler, undercarriage and exhaust intact too....

[Mint]

I had this sort of problem when I bought my Zed a couple of years ago. Mine 'shuddered' at one speed like the wheels were out of balance. Turned out it was a sticking caliper. Something else to think of?

[Koolflyer]

OK...thanks for the feedback. I'm not running lowered, just standard set up. I've now a list of things to check, so hopefully one of them might lead me to getting it sorted. If I find the cause obviously I'll post my findings straight away, in the mean time thanks for the ideas.

[Mike Fishwick]

You do not tell us the sizes of wheels and tyres fitted to your car.

If they are 16 inch wheels with the same sized tyres, try swapping the fronts for the rears, as the Yokos may be the cause of the problem.

[frog farmer]

Yokos... I have no idea what it stands for ? but I have 16inch Pirelli's front and back and swapped them over and it seems to have cured 75% of the problem, thank you, I think I had a lot of wear in one of my ball joints before I replaced them and it had worn the front tyre to correspond with the wear, putting new wishbones on must have put everything out ! simple really, Koolflyer I think you should try this as you described my problem exactly as yours...Tracking being done in the morning. Mel.

[Robert T]

Yokos = Yokohama tyres, as per the OPs post.

Cheers R.

[Koolflyer]

The rears are wider with Falken FK453 245/40 ZR17, and the fronts are Yokohama S306 225/45 ZR17 so I can't swop them, however my mates going to let me put his fronts onto mine from his similar 2.8 as a test. Should be interesting. I will check all the other points too when I'm off shift.

[Koolflyer]

Right, swopped my tyres and wheels over with my friends Michelin Pilot's and in fact did find that things were a lot better. However, whilst the wheels were off the ground I noticed left and right play on the OS wheel, but not top to bottom. Play could be felt by holding the track rod ends on that side. My local Tanvic Tyre guy got it on the ramp today and confirmed the play was coming not from the steering rack but from under the rubber boot on the tie rod ends. Tomorrow both are being replaced and I shall report back hopefully with good news and an end to the shuddering steering wheel....fingers crossed!

[Koolflyer]

Both tie rod ends, track rod ends and boots replaced. Obviously tracking readjusted and a shuddering steering wheel is no longer! Wear in the ball joint inside that rubber boot on the OS was more evident than the NS ball joint, don't know why. All I have now is the usual BMW annoyance which is a slight 'tram lining' issue, which we did prove that by putting a different front tyres on (perhaps more suited to a Z3) did in fact help this situation. As MF stated, may be my Yoko's are not the best tyre chioce for this car, but that's going to be another day, and another pay cheque!

[Gazza]

Another happy Zedder

[t-tony]

Hey there Koolflyer,which branch of Tanvic Tyres did you get your steering repaired at? I work at Lincoln branch and have a 2000 Z3 2.0 Auto. Reading through the posts I was geared up to say it was likely the lower arm inner ball joints. Quite common on 3 series,often cause of MOT failure.

[Koolflyer]

Hi, I took it along to the Loughborough Tanvic Tyres, they confirmed what I had found, did the job and were extremely helpful too.

[ualla]

Hi guys,

I thought it a better idea to revive this thread rather than create a new one. Ever since I got my Z3 I've been on a mission to sort my shuddering/tramlining problem.

I firstly took the car to get a wheel alignment. They couldn't do it because the tie rods were seized. I changed the tie rods and got the alignment done.

I still had the problem. I changed the wishbone bushes to the powerflex 301s (the old ones were seized as well and needed to be blowtorched), and while it feels more controllable, it is still quite evident. Every time my steering wheel moves left/right i feel like I'm in a bit more control. But I still get this issue.

After reading this thread, I'm thinking of changing the track rods (that's what connects the steering rack to the wheels, right?).

FYI, I have a set of quite old Bridgestone ER300s mounted. While they do still have a decent amount of tread (roughly 4mm all round), they are old and hard (in fact the tires have some cracks in the tread canals). I understand that this might make the shudder even worse, but I don't believe this is the cause.

One last thing, When I bought the car, the guys selling it had perceived a sticky caliper so changed only the front right. I'm looking at changing the front left as well, just to make sure.

It's become a personal mission and I don't feel I can make any other changes to the car until I have solved this issue.

[BladeRunner919]

FYI, I have a set of quite old Bridgestone ER300s mounted. While they do still have a decent amount of tread (roughly 4mm all round), they are old and hard (in fact the tires have some cracks in the tread canals). I understand that this might make the shudder even worse, but I don't believe this is the cause.

That seems like quite an assumption to jump to. As the tyres sound like they need replacing anyway (old, hard and cracked is not good) why not start there? You have to spend that money, so you may as well spend it there first.

[ualla]

FYI, I have a set of quite old Bridgestone ER300s mounted. While they do still have a decent amount of tread (roughly 4mm all round), they are old and hard (in fact the tires have some cracks in the tread canals). I understand that this might make the shudder even worse, but I don't believe this is the cause.

That seems like quite an assumption to jump to. As the tyres sound like they need replacing anyway (old, hard and cracked is not good) why not start there? You have to spend that money, so you may as well spend it there first.

Fair enough, that does make sense. I did want to change the tyres, but I was also thinking of changing the alloys to 18" ones. I know this would make the tramlining even worse but I don't really like the alloys on mine and seeing as I would need to change the tyres, I thought about changing everything at the same time.

My assumption was mainly due to me thinking that bad tyres could make the defect more noticeable but wouldn't necessarily be the cause. Wouldn't be the first time I'd be wrong

[BladeRunner919]

Tyres can cause both the symptoms. An old tyre can be damaged and sent out of round by a decent sized pothole that can cause shudder. Might be worth swapping the front and back tyres over to see if there's any change (assuming you have the same size front and back).

[ualla]

Fair play. I think I will look at finding a set of alloys and tyres in the next couple of weeks. If I'm going to change them, might as well do it now.

Thanks for your input!

[Robert T]

I will second that. Tyres seem to be the single most influential factor in causing tramlining.

Each time I have changed my tyres for new, the tramlining goes away and then gradually comes back as the tyres wear.

If it is still noticeable after fitting new tyres, then look at changing bushes and other components.

Also, I have noticed that below 3mm of tread, there is a distinct lack of grip in the wet on my car - the traction control goes into overdrive! So if they are old tyres, changing them is no bad thing anyway.

Cheers R.

[billz]

Going to 18s wont make the situation worse if you fit decent tyres. I run 18s with conti contact sport and have done for the last 2 1/2 years and never had a serious issue with tramlining, i first had 18s with a cheap brand of tyres and the car was all over the place.

[ualla]

Thanks for the replies.

I've just realised that my Z3's handbook says max I can mount are 17s. How does it work in the UK to be able to mount bigger Alloys?

[Del]

I've just realised that my Z3's handbook says max I can mount are 17s. How does it work in the UK to be able to mount bigger Alloys

You are right, the biggest wheels fitted by BMW to the Z3 were 17s. Some people fit bigger 18s in the UK because they just like the contemporary look of bigger wheels. I understand that in some EU countries the authorities (at the annual inspection equivalent to our MOT) do not like alterations from the original equipment. This is not a problem with 18s for the UK MOT.

[gookah]

I have 19's on mine...

[ualla]

Yeah, in Italy it is an extremely complicated process. It's just not worth it.

So here I can just put them on and as long as they aren't wider than the wheel arches I'm good?

19s? Really? That sounds enticing. What size tires?

[gookah]

Yeah, in Italy it is an extremely complicated process. It's just not worth it.

So here I can just put them on and as long as they aren't wider than the wheel arches I'm good?

19s? Really? That sounds enticing. What size tires?

235/35 19x8.5 fronts
and 265/30 19x9.5 rears all ET35 and no spacers.

[ualla]

Just to update anybody who might be interested, I can confirm that changing tires resolved 95% of my tramlining, so thanks guys!

In the end I decided to keep my 16" wheels for the time being and next time I have to change my tires I'll consider upgrading.

Thanks!

[bertiejaffa]

To what?

[Rafolian]

Larger wheels?

[ualla]

Yes apologies, I meant upgrading to larger alloys. I felt the need to change tires and didn't have enough time to look for the right set of wheels...

[bertiejaffa]

Hi, no I meant to what tyres....? You teased us by saying that you had changed them and all was now well but didnt give us poor remaining trams the info

[ualla]

Haha, fair play

I was looking for the Falken 453, but I couldn't find them in the size I needed them (225/50 R16). I then decided to go for the Toyo Proxes TR1. I bought them from valuetyres.co.uk and had them delivered to a fitting centre close to home. It was the cheapest I could find at £370 fitted.

Now I get very limited tramlining, and the rare time I do get it, my steering wheel doesn't all of a sudden get a mind of its own, which was scary.

Yesterday I went for a bit of a drive to run the tires in, and I noticed that on a couple of roads the steering wheel was vibrating though. Not sure whether it is because if the new tires, but I'll see how that goes.