HELP. Assist with Key Cloning

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Thu 29 May, 2014 11:39

Hi Guys,

I only have 1 key and would like it CLONED or another key made as a spare. The dealers here want AUD$620 for a second key which is extortionate. I am getting quotes for local locksmiths but the minimum [unconfirmed] price is $150-$300.

It is a Z3 roadster, 2.2i, 2001 model, M54B22 engine, key has the 3 buttons built in the key itself [close is the big button, open is a smaller one, and light is the other small one]. I am not fussed if the replacement key has the ability to unlock the doors and such the main thing is having a spare key.

I am willing to send my key to England to get it CLONED or an additional one made if possible. Can you guys advise me the cost to get this done over there and if you would be willing to receive my key and take it in and have it done [assuming it is far cheaper]?

Thanks. Please PM me don't put your personal details here for the world to see.

Cooper

BladeRunner919 · Post by **BladeRunner919** » Thu 29 May, 2014 11:49

I'd try another dealer if I were you. You should be able to get a new one for way less than that, especially if you get one that has no central locking or alarm function. I'm not aware of anyone that can successfully clone the keys. You could (not recommended) get a copy cut at a locksmith, and then remove the immobiliser transponder from the key and permanently install it in the plastics surrounding the ignition key - obviously that would mean your immobiliser no longer immobilises.

As you only have the one key, I'd suggest that posting it half way around the world is probably not terribly sensible!

lightning · Post by **lightning** » Thu 29 May, 2014 12:48

I paid £150 for a second key for my last Z3, and it came with the remote function.

A UK BMW dealer might post one to Australia, if the O/P can prove ownership of the car.
Not sure if it could be done without the original key, but it could be sent insured for the cost of new locks etc if it were lost.

pingu · Post by **pingu** » Thu 29 May, 2014 13:10

lightning wrote:I paid £150 for a second key for my last Z3, and it came with the remote function.

A UK BMW dealer might post one to Australia, if the O/P can prove ownership of the car.
Not sure if it could be done without the original key, but it could be sent insured for the cost of new locks etc if it were lost.

This is a well known way of stealing cars that used to work

. It has, hopefully, been stopped by now.

You contact a dealer in a foreign country, tell them that you are visiting and have lost your keys. They don't know what proves ownership and accept your (forged / stolen) passport as ID. You get a key. You post the key to the country where the car resides and an accomplice drives the car off the driveway, never to be seen again.

I would be VERY surprised if a UK dealer would send a key out of the UK.

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Thu 29 May, 2014 13:35

Thanks guys. Please let me clarify.

I have a friend in the UK - should be arriving tonight and she will be there for some time. I can provide her or someone in the UK with all the REAL paperwork, receipt/passport/registration papers/driver's licence and she could collect and bring back. Alternatively I could send to a long term and well known UK forum member who can post the additional key to me. I would do the same for someone else! Anyway, I am looking for prices now and GBP150 is about AUD300 so I would be better off getting the locksmith here to do it. The locksmith's here are not backyard operations. Many have all the proper laser cutters and programming stuff and comply with local and national regulations so there is no monkey business.

If the only key I have gets lost I will certainly be up for AUD620.

My car does have central locking but I am not fussed about the spare key having that function. It is possible to buy a key from Ebay for AUD50 delivered which has the central locking capability and EWS programming capability. I then have to get it cut and and they will still charge me a fortune for the programming EWS. I know how to program the central locking however, some locksmiths that CLONE do not provide a key with the FOB central locking such as the locksmith I am getting a quote from. - so not an issue I just don't want to make this key the most expensive part of the car!

By the way, an easy way to get around the EWS programming is to remove the electronics from my existing key and mount inside the steering column. I can then cut as many spare keys as I want [AUD40] and the car will always think I am using the same original key! I am not willing to do that and would rather pay the AUD300.

If someone knows a great stealer that do me awesome deal I am here!

Post by **Robert T** » Thu 29 May, 2014 19:08

The immobiliser requires a chip in the key which is read inductively through a loop in the ignition barrel. It has a cyclic code, so it is reasonably complex to "clone". Unless someone can tell me otherwise, the only place you can get these from is BMW, and there are only about 8 per car. You do not program the EWS to recognise the new key - it has to be one of the 8 chips - but you can tell the car not to respond to one or more of the keys (in case one is lost for example). The cheapest way to get a key that will start the car is to ask BMW for a grey service key. This is literally just a physical key with a chip in it, no remote, which sounds like what you want.

The remote function does not appear to require quite such specific hardware, and the car can be programmed to recognise new remotes. I know people have bought extra remote fobs for the housebrick type remote, and I think I remember someone getting a tombstone type key to work as well. If you can buy a remote of the right type (some are radio, some are infrared, with different frequencies depending on country), then you might just be able to program the car to recognise the new remote and transplant the blade and chip for the service key (or just put them on a keyring together).

Cheers R.

lightning · Post by **lightning** » Thu 29 May, 2014 20:18

pingu wrote:
lightning wrote:I paid £150 for a second key for my last Z3, and it came with the remote function.

A UK BMW dealer might post one to Australia, if the O/P can prove ownership of the car.
Not sure if it could be done without the original key, but it could be sent insured for the cost of new locks etc if it were lost.
This is a well known way of stealing cars that used to work . It has, hopefully, been stopped by now.

You contact a dealer in a foreign country, tell them that you are visiting and have lost your keys. They don't know what proves ownership and accept your (forged / stolen) passport as ID. You get a key. You post the key to the country where the car resides and an accomplice drives the car off the driveway, never to be seen again.

I would be VERY surprised if a UK dealer would send a key out of the UK.

I never thought of that.
Then you are right, they are not going to post a key to Australia.

BladeRunner919 · Post by **BladeRunner919** » Fri 30 May, 2014 10:53

Robert T wrote: You do not program the EWS to recognise the new key - it has to be one of the 8 chips - but you can tell the car not to respond to one or more of the keys (in case one is lost for example).

You can actually reprogram the EWS using an AK90, which costs about £50. Have a look at this:

http://www.cardiag.co.uk/bmw-ak90-key-p ... w-ews.html

That would allow you to buy a second hand key, swap the blade for one cut to your car, then enter the transponder into the EWS.

Post by **Robert T** » Fri 30 May, 2014 12:28

That is a horribly dangerous sounding piece of kit, at least in terms of security for our cars.

It appears to program the chips in the keys rather than programming the EWS to respond to a new key which does not belong to the car:

3.Programming original chips "EML 10030A" for making keys .

This does mean that you might be able to buy any key of the correct type with a chip in it and then get Timpsons etc. to cut you a new blade. As I said earlier, it sounds possible to program the remote function to respond to any new remote control that operates on the correct frequency and medium (IR/radio).

Cheers R.

BladeRunner919 · Post by **BladeRunner919** » Fri 30 May, 2014 16:32

It's not as bad as you think - it is actually for programming the EWS and requires that the EWS is physically removed from the car. Have a look at this:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread ... st14796416

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 11:36

Ok guys,

I am having trouble getting quotes for additional keys except from the dealers at $620. so;

A. There is a device which is called a AK90 and the Ebay part is 360909046922. I will pull the EWS and make sure the chip is one of those identified as OK. I have reviewed some videos on it any it's a maybe for that...
B. The diamond key I have my eyes on is this Ebay part number 121319241431.
C. It costs $40 to get the blank cut her in Tasmania.
D. Programming the central locking is easy.

So, I will be asking around to make sure this combination will work. If anyone has tried and succeeded/failed please let me know, appreciate it.

Cooper

Post by **Robert T** » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 13:08

What price did the dealer give for a "grey service key", which comes without remote control electronics?

Cheers R.

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 14:06

Robert T wrote:What price did the dealer give for a "grey service key", which comes without remote control electronics?

Cheers R.

Hi I did not get a quote for that but will ask tomorrow. I just read through the posts and saw that you mentioned the grey key. I will post the reply. Thanks.

bertiejaffa · Post by **bertiejaffa** » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 15:57

Just to add to this, my M only came with one key as well which was frustrating, it has also had an aftermarket viper alarm and immobiliser fitted which now does everything, including the central locking which means my key only actually starts the engine (after the viper immobiliser has been pressed). The key will open the doors however - strangely without setting the alarm off!!!

Anyway, getting to the point of making a spare key - obviously this is something I must do going forward.

The car did come with a new BMW blank key. considering the original key doesnt operate the central locking, immobiliser or alarm all I wanted was a copy of the original cut into the new blank BMW key. I took it to my local locksmith who was initially unwilling to cut it as they dont supply BMW keys and if he got it wrong then he didnt want to be held responsible for providing a replacement. I told him that the blank key I had came free with the car and considering it was useless in its current uncut state I would be no worse off if he cut a copy and it didnt work.

With that logic he continued to cut the key for me at no cost - his issue was that the sides of the BMW keys are not flush enough to fit in their key cutting machines without flying out and after watching him fight to make a perfect copy for 20 minutes with the original key ejecting itself from the machine every 30 seconds I can confirm he has a point. He says BMW have specialist tools that cut the key which leads to the high costs, and then I guess you can add the chip and coding to that which results in the £150 quote.

The key he did cut works to open the doors and turns the barrel on the car but doesn't start the engine. I am assuming this is because the key is not quite right but close enough to open locks and barrels that are 17 years old rather than anything to do with not having an immobiliser chip in it (based on the viper one thats fitted)

BladeRunner919 · Post by **BladeRunner919** » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 16:10

bertiejaffa wrote:
The key he did cut works to open the doors and turns the barrel on the car but doesn't start the engine. I am assuming this is because the key is not quite right but close enough to open locks and barrels that are 17 years old rather than anything to do with not having an immobiliser chip in it (based on the viper one thats fitted)

If it turns the barrel as far as the other key, then the car should start. The fact that it doesn't is because your EWS is immobilising the car as well as the aftermarket alarm.

bertiejaffa · Post by **bertiejaffa** » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 16:58

BladeRunner919 wrote:
bertiejaffa wrote:
The key he did cut works to open the doors and turns the barrel on the car but doesn't start the engine. I am assuming this is because the key is not quite right but close enough to open locks and barrels that are 17 years old rather than anything to do with not having an immobiliser chip in it (based on the viper one thats fitted)
If it turns the barrel as far as the other key, then the car should start. The fact that it doesn't is because your EWS is immobilising the car as well as the aftermarket alarm.

Post by **Robert T** » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 17:22

bertiejaffa wrote:The key he did cut works to open the doors and turns the barrel on the car but doesn't start the engine. I am assuming this is because the key is not quite right but close enough to open locks and barrels that are 17 years old rather than anything to do with not having an immobiliser chip in it (based on the viper one thats fitted)

If the barrel turns then the physical key is fine, but either the immobiliser chip is not present or is not being recognised by the car. I expect the EWS is still present and active, despite the Viper immobiliser also being fitted. The validity of the key can be checked using INPA, and it will give the reason why the ignition is still disabled. Without INPA, one simple way to test the key is to start the key with your working key, then turn it off, swap to the copy key and restart the car. The car remembers that it has seen the chip and does not "timeout" for a period of quite some seconds. If turn it off again, go and have a cup of tea, and then try again, it will be back to not starting the car.

Cheers R.

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Fri 06 Jun, 2014 06:58

BladeRunner919 wrote:
Robert T wrote: You do not program the EWS to recognise the new key - it has to be one of the 8 chips - but you can tell the car not to respond to one or more of the keys (in case one is lost for example).
You can actually reprogram the EWS using an AK90, which costs about £50. Have a look at this: http://www.cardiag.co.uk/bmw-ak90-key-p ... w-ews.html That would allow you to buy a second hand key, swap the blade for one cut to your car, then enter the transponder into the EWS.

@bladerunner919, have you actually done that with the AK90 ot know someone that has [with a Z3? I have checked it out and am very interested but I will pull the EWS out first to make sure it has the right chip for the machine. I need to be 100% sure before I blow my $. There is some doubts about cyclic coding/password which I don't fully understand. I am going to the local locksmith next week to get my key read, then will start the car again and compare the code. I will post results.

@robert t I got the quote for the grey key from the dealer and it is AUD$276.82 so I am getting closer to a better deal. It opens the door and starts the car only. The part number is 51218205443 and the book value is USD$46.00. I suppose the rest is cut, program, delivery and 1000% markup

I believe the replacement master key is part number 51218374064 for the 315MHz radio, all the buttons, suitable for my 2001 2.2 and full price for the blank is less than USD$50.

Cooper

bertiejaffa · Post by **bertiejaffa** » Fri 06 Jun, 2014 20:25

Ok so today I went to my local BMW dealership in Manchester. I told them everything I currently had on the car etc. They pulled up a load of diagrams (much like REALOEM) and it turns out that my current key (ie the one that came as working with the car) is known as a "universal key" and the one I had cut that was a blank (and the same as my 2.0l keys) is a "standard key".

Getting my blank "standard key" chipped - £140
Getting a copy of the universal key made including chip etc.... £55

To get my new universal key cut I only have to drop off my driving license and the V5 document (car registration / ownership form) and it will take 24 hours. My universal key looks like this and has a light at the front when you press the centre button (hope this help give people an option):

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Sat 07 Jun, 2014 06:00

Getting my blank "standard key" chipped - £140 getting a copy of the universal key made including chip etc.... £55

That is more like it.

By the way, am creating a document that explains everything we need to know about keys. When it is proof read I will release it for everyone.

bertiejaffa · Post by **bertiejaffa** » Sat 07 Jun, 2014 11:22

Cooper01 wrote:
Getting my blank "standard key" chipped - £140 getting a copy of the universal key made including chip etc.... £55
That is more like it.

By the way, am creating a document that explains everything we need to know about keys. When it is proof read I will release it for everyone.

Yep exactly, I nearly didn't bother popping in either considering the cost that you had been quoted - glad I did. The diagrams they brought up really are like the realoem site. The one that brings the keys up literally has 10 - 20 different keys on it, I showed him the ones I had on the diagrams and he literally just clicked on the link and brought up the prices of them all. I am assuming as they are all on there that they can all be used so maybe the KEY (pardon the pun) to getting the correct, or lower price is not to restrict them to the variety of key you currently have but to guide them to the picture of the universal key (like the one I have uploaded) and ask them to quote for one of those instead. After all, the guy who served me seemed quite senior and knowledgeable but some of the younger guys might not realise that other variations of keys can be used and so will just quote for a like for like replacement/copy - worth a go.

Post by **Robert T** » Sat 07 Jun, 2014 16:38

bertiejaffa wrote:The diagrams they brought up really are like the realoem site.

Yes, that's because RealOEM is based on the BMW ETK, which is what BMW use internally. You can see the ETK online here: http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/access ... logue.html

Cheers R.

Koolflyer · Post by **Koolflyer** » Sun 08 Jun, 2014 07:23

All I wanted was a spare key for my 1997 2.8 Roadster which has a separate remote control. Sytner Nottingham cutting a proper metal spare key for £43 BMW car club member (normally £50ish), ready in 48 hours. My mate has just had cut for his 2001 2.2 'Roady' too. As already stated you need to produce the following:

Original key
Log book - proof of ownership
Photo ID
Utility bill

Seem sensible precautions, hopefully to keep the thieving bastards at bay!

BTW I love my family trips out to Oz...esp Perth

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Sun 08 Jun, 2014 13:00

Koolflyer wrote:All I wanted was a spare key for my 1997 2.8 Roadster which has a separate remote control. Sytner Nottingham cutting a proper metal spare key for £43 BMW car club member (normally £50ish), ready in 48 hours. My mate has just had cut for his 2001 2.2 'Roady' too.

Cheapest I can get so far AUD$270 which is £150 not including remote function. I am still looking to make my own and almost finished with a document on the process to all to see.

BladeRunner919 · Post by **BladeRunner919** » Sun 08 Jun, 2014 16:19

This guy has already done a step-by-step diy:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14796416

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Mon 09 Jun, 2014 02:14

BladeRunner919 wrote:This guy has already done a step-by-step diy: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14796416

Thanks, have seen that and only 1 question remains. I have been asking sellers of the AK90 and sellers of the diamond head keys this question and have not had a clear answer yet. All I get is technical gibberish and non-committal answers or complete silence. When I get the answer I will be the happiest man on the earth for about 5 minutes. This is the question;

The AK90 will program a virgin EML 10030A chip key. The diamond head keys from Ebay have a PCF7935AS chip. Will the AK90 program a PCF7935AS chip?

Cooper

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Mon 09 Jun, 2014 07:57

[/quote] The AK90 will program a virgin EML 10030A chip key. The diamond head keys from Ebay have a PCF7935AS chip. Will the AK90 program a PCF7935AS chip? Cooper[/quote]

Just found out the AK90 will not program the PCF7935AS chip. I now know what to do. I will get my hands on the 10030A chip key and try the AK90 and report back - unless I can somehow get a cheap key from BMW in England!

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Tue 10 Jun, 2014 14:02

OK guys....

If I can find a virgin 10030A chipped key I will be buying the AK90 programmer and creating my own chip. There is no other cost effective way.
I cannot buy a genuine BMW key from an overseas dealer [not allowed] and BMW will not sell a blank key [not here in Australia anyway] for security reasons.
Cheapest key I can purchase here from the Australian dealer is equivalent to 150 pounds . Cheapest in England 43 pounds.

If anyone can purchase a new BMW key part number 51218374064 please PM me and lets see what we can do.

I have almost completed a full 3 page document on all things keys!

bertiejaffa · Post by **bertiejaffa** » Tue 10 Jun, 2014 19:32

FYI, I didnt manage to get to the BMW dealership in Manchester yesterday - I had to work - yep rude I know !! I am intending on going Thursday

Cooper01 · Post by **Cooper01** » Wed 11 Jun, 2014 01:19

Haha. I know what they will say regarding me getting a key cut there so it is a waste of time asking. However, not 100% about getting a new blank key....

zroadster.net

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