HID conversion

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lightning
Joined: Tue 27 Nov, 2007 08:15
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HID conversion

Post by lightning »

The headlights are not tremendously bright on my Z3, particularly dip beam. Can HID conversion be done on the Z3, and is it worthwhile.

If so, can anybody recommend a good quality kit?
gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

I have done it with an eBay kit, works a treat, loads better than the existing lights, and passed my MOT no problem.

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As long as the aim is correct, you will be fine, I get no oncoming traffic flashing me.
You do not need to fit headlamp washers or levellers for the MOT, it is only where they are fitted that they must be operational.
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lightning
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Re: HID conversion

Post by lightning »

Thanks for the reply.
Is the system easy to fit?
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BladeRunner919
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Re: HID conversion

Post by BladeRunner919 »

HIDs in fresnel-lens headlights is incredibly inconsiderate to the other road users that you blind. Either retrofit projectors or get better halogen bulbs.
gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

a doddle, they fit like an ordinary H7 lamp, and plug straight in to the existing loom.
Like I say no-one flashes me, and it passes the MOT,
There will always be people, mostly with no experience of them, that say otherwise... :wink:

I find most new car headlamps dazzle, because of the intensity of light, but of course they are allowed.
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
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BladeRunner919
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Re: HID conversion

Post by BladeRunner919 »

gookah wrote: There will always be people, mostly with no experience of them, that say otherwise... :wink:
I have plenty of experience of being blinded by them, but I don't bother to flash because I know the other driver doesn't care.
gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

I care that mine don't dazzle, they pass the MOT, I don't get flashed and they are legal.
If that changes, then so might my opinion.
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
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Robert T
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Robert T »

The legality of HIDs is questionable. This is a direct quote from the FAQ section of a site specialising in HID kits (based in the UK):
Unfortunately no aftermarket HID kit is strictly road legal as you are changing the lighting system (from halogen to gas discharge) in your car and for this reason the bulbs can't be E marked which is a legal requirement. You also won't have the self leveling and washer systems installed which is also a legal requirement for HID and without these installed the kit would be an MOT failure. HID kits are plug and play so they are easy to remove and replace with standard bulbs come MOT time.
Just because some MOT testers will pass a car with aftermarket HIDs fitted, does not mean they all will.

The main problem I find with the dipped beam headlights on both my cars is that they are so close to the ground. For the MOT, they are supposed to be aimed downward by 1.3%, which means that the throw is much shorter than on a car with the headlamps positioned higher. Increasing the light output helps with finding the edge of the road, but it doesn't let you see any further down it.

The two other options to consider are higher output halogen/xenon bulbs (I run 100% brighter Ring bulbs, which are E-marked and completely legal) or projectors which use a lens to focus the light. I don't know the exact legal position of projectors, but at least one of the companies selling them in the UK states that they are E-marked.

Cheers R.
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Southernboy
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Southernboy »

Roberts advice is worth noting.... The use of better / brighter low beam bulbs is the simplest way forward. Phillips do some really great bulbs and the difference is profound. It is worth having the position / setting of your headlights checked to allow you the optimum legal setting.
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Mike Fishwick
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Mike Fishwick »

A lot of people do not realise that a halogen bulb has a life of abuot five years, after whicvh the filaments droop and focus becomes degraded. Also the bulbs fitted by manufacturers compromise light output and colour temperature in favour of long life, in order to reduce warranty claims.

Another consideration is that of supply voltage, as if the battery is old it will draw additional current, the load reducing alternator voltagr. Check the voltage at the bulbs by sticking a pin through the insualation and measuring between the bulb and the battery (at the jump start terminasl) on both the supply and earth sides. A 0.5 volt drop is the equivalent of losing about 5 watts.

Yes - fit modern bulbs by either Philips XtremeVision or the Osram equivalent, which will make a large difference on their own. Forget about all the others. My old 2.8 is on its second battery - a Varta Silver type - and with Philips Blu Vision bulbs (old technology now) the headlamps are excellent - although a bit more range on main beam would be handy in rural France, where we have long roads with no light pollution fom street lights.

Remember that an HID headlamp set will only have HID on dip, and judging from modern cars the lens-less main beams will be nothing to get excited about - they are a fashion statement rather than a good headlamp design.

The idea of fitting an HID tube into a normal headlamp is not a good one, and according to the DfT is also illegal, although at the moment the regulation ignore them. I have never heard any owners admitting that their lights are anything but beneficial to oncoming drivers . . . rather like people with noisy exhausts, who dream up all manner of excuses! Sooner or later, as the MoT is progressivly tightened up they will result in a reason for failure.
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gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

Robert T wrote:
Unfortunately no aftermarket HID kit is strictly road legal as you are changing the lighting system (from halogen to gas discharge) in your car and for this reason the bulbs can't be E marked which is a legal requirement. You also won't have the self leveling and washer systems installed which is also a legal requirement for HID and without these installed the kit would be an MOT failure. HID kits are plug and play so they are easy to remove and replace with standard bulbs come MOT time.


Just because some MOT testers will pass a car with aftermarket HIDs fitted, does not mean they all will.
.

If I refer you to The MOT Testers Handbook, Section 1.7:
Vehicles equipped with High Intensity Discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system. Where such systems are fitted, they must work;

Where HID or LED dipped beam headlamps are fitted, switch on the headlamps and check the operation of any headlamp levelling and cleaning devices fitted

They also have to test for aim and dazzle, Section 1.8:

The type of headlamp will determine whether the aim must be checked on main or dipped beam. See diagrams 1, 2 and 3, which include details appropriate to each headlamp type. A flat top or other alternative headlamp dipped beam pattern (not being one of the examples) is acceptable providing all of the beam upper edge, including any “peak” is contained within the appropriate tolerance band. These methods of inspection involve the use of beam checking equipment with a collecting lens.

When adjusting European ‘E’ beam headlamps they should be set in accordance with the type approval marking which is either close to the vehicle manufacturer’s plate or the headlamp. For vehicles without a marking, the downward aim should be set to: · 1.3%, if the headlamp centre is not more than 850 mm from the ground · 2.0%, if the headlamp centre is more than 850 mm from the ground.

There is no mention of illegality of fitting a non E marked lamp in an E marked unit.


And,... Reason for fail:
1. a. A headlamp which does not conform to diagrams 1, 2 or 3 that has a beam image which is aimed so that it dazzles other road users.
b. Projected beam image obviously incorrect, e.g. where the headlamp bulb is incorrectly fitted or the reflector is seriously corroded.
c. headlamp aim unable to be tested



Self levelling systems and headlamp washers are not a legal requirement. Where they are fitted they have to work, where it is not practical to test them, then benefit of doubt must be given.

Mine have been tested on beam checking equipment and have passed the test that checks the beam pattern is correct and does not dazzle.

Can anyone now equally show me the section in the MOT Testers manual that will cover a "reason for fail" that these 'other' MOT testers would need to quote.
I will then accept this, rather than the manufacturer's 'get out' blurb which is clearly flawed.

Until then I will carry on being inconsiderate, (if that means less likely to have an accident due to me having better lighting) knowing that they are also officially tested and Certified that they do not dazzle.

Oh and where did anyone mention "beneficial to other drivers" ????
Last edited by gookah on Thu 28 Aug, 2014 18:42, edited 2 times in total.
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
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lightning
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Re: HID conversion

Post by lightning »

Hmmmm.........two camps here.

I will try a set of better bulbs first, although on previous cars l have found the Ring "100% brighter" claim to be total tosh.
Although there was an improvement with them fitted.
siwilson
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Re: HID conversion

Post by siwilson »

FWIW I had HIDs in my M and although they look a lot brighter the light penetration into the distance was not that good. I have since replaced with 100% plus bulbs and it's a lot better. It doesn't look as bright but really penetrates the darkness.
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gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

For those who want E-marked:


E-marked, HID H7 kit
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
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Robert T
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Robert T »

lightning wrote:I will try a set of better bulbs first, although on previous cars l have found the Ring "100% brighter" claim to be total tosh.
Can't see they feel any brighter than the 70% brighter Sylvania Silverstars I had before them, but they are still better than standard.

Cheers R.
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Southernboy
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Southernboy »

What do your road rules say about driving with fogs switched on? Out here it's not allowed after dark - unless it's foggy - but the cops don't enforce the rule and consequently, I use them to add to the dip beam output. They are adjustable, and will provide excellent lateral illumination and some forward improvement.
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lightning
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Re: HID conversion

Post by lightning »

A lot of people round here drive with the front fog lights on at night.
Some drive with them on and the sidelights only (no headlights)

It's not legal, l was stopped once in my van when l had them on, and told off. "Is it foggy?" he said

Personally l cannot see a problem using them. I have never been dazzled by them, and they are certainly less of a menace thanthe headlights on some new cars.
ln fact some cars seem to use them as DRL's.
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Southernboy
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Southernboy »

So it is illegal to use them there when it's not warranted by foggy weather then? I must say I find them very good at lighting up the road verge at night especially out in the country where there is no other road lights. They also add very good illumination slightly beyond the dip beam limits to the front. I agree that I have never found fog lights a "dazzle" issue as much as some headlights. Because the Z3 is a low seated position, headlights are often a problem and any van or truck is a real PITA. I have taken to wearing night glasses when driving outside city limits to reduce the glare... and as we have all experienced, some drivers don't bother to dip their main beams... :shock:
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gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

Southernboy wrote:So it is illegal to use them there when it's not warranted by foggy weather then? I must say I find them very good at lighting up the road verge at night especially out in the country where there is no other road lights. They also add very good illumination slightly beyond the dip beam limits to the front. I agree that I have never found fog lights a "dazzle" issue as much as some headlights. Because the Z3 is a low seated position, headlights are often a problem and any van or truck is a real PITA. I have taken to wearing night glasses when driving outside city limits to reduce the glare... and as we have all experienced, some drivers don't bother to dip their main beams... :shock:
Use of foglights in anything other than reduced visibility is illegal in the UK at all times of day.
They do emit a low level beam that lights the pavements and centrelines of the road, and are designed to have a very low cut-off on the beam so as not to shine high. This would otherwise just reflect back, as you can see if you put main beams on in the fog.
The only time I could see that they would dazzle is when the road is wet, otherwise they are desgned to shine low and are particularly good on country roads.
I think oncoming traffic who flash when conditions are dry, are confusing the amount of lights operating with dazzle, or, are just pointing out that "you are not allowed to do that"
I do not drive with mine on, even though they would be quite useful, because so many old people flash..... :roflmao:
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
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Southernboy
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Southernboy »

.... lots of old flashers over there are there... :D
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gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

Southernboy wrote:.... lots of old flashers over there are there... :D
Yes, they wear beige raincoats.
Are beige clothes compulsory for old people in SA as well? :D
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Z3 2.8 Progress Journal (Mine)
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
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Southernboy
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Southernboy »

beige or grey flannel trousers, beige coats, square shaped sunglasses, and brown leather shoes.... with a few days worth of facial hair growth... :D
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Mike Fishwick
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Mike Fishwick »

You can put an 'EC' marking on an HID tube, but that mark only refers to the tube - not the installation, which is a different approval altogether. Also, it does not mean that the bulb etc has been tested and approved as complying with any EC regulation - it is only an indication that the manufacturer is aware of the relevant standard. You could put an EC 37 approval mark on a Mars Bar - but it would still be a Mars Bar!

On the subject of legal installation, the trouble is that VOSA say one thing in the MoT Testers Manual, while the DfT say something different:

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

They go on to say that:

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.

This means that the DfT consider an after-market HID installation must include a suitable headlamp unit with wash/wipe facilities and self-levelling, whether it is needed or not, and the cheaper HID power units can cause severe electromagnetic interference to any electronic equipment from TV sets to pacemakers!

Of course, people will continue to fit HID tubes into bulb-type light units, the Police could not care less, and the Mot testers operate by rules which, while they may be described as common sense, are at variance with the DfT, of whom VOSA are an agency. If you can figure out the logic of that situation you are obvioulsy cleverer than me!
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deni2s
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Re: HID conversion

Post by deni2s »

In Latvia at MOT they are verifying some markings on headlight, if it can contain HID bulbs.
bertiejaffa
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Re: HID conversion

Post by bertiejaffa »

Ok...in answer to your question yes they can. A lot of people don't like them and will blame them for a lot of stuff but the facts are :-

My m had them fitted when I bought it and it's just passed its mot without any issues and I have no issue on any road: town, motorway or country

gookah knows what he is taking about re modifications so follow his lead. He also has no issues

I had a beetle in 1990, and the headlights were crap, but I upgraded mine and they were the same as the standard golf at the time. Compare them to now and they were probably like candles. The rule is to obey the law, point them where they should point and you will be fine. At the end of the day, if a lorry or an x5 comes up behind you it will look bright in your mirror. The lights on their car/lorry are actually fine, it's just we just own small cars that are half the size of modern cars and this has to be considered.

Get them done.
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siwilson
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Re: HID conversion

Post by siwilson »

The facts are here.

The reality is that you may get through an MOT or you may not. I did even though my car experienced the same issues outlined in the document I linked to above.

Like I said, I had them, removed them and won't be going back.
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siwilson
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Re: HID conversion

Post by siwilson »

I found this great website that shines a light (pardon the pun) on the science of why HID upgrades are not a good idea. Daniel Stern Lighting.
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Mike Fishwick
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Mike Fishwick »

Just as I suggested ages ago - in one case, a Lexus owner with a really dangerous 'self steering' problem found it was due to RF interference from his HID 'ballasts' (a word which means nothing - they are inverters, or voltage converters) having originally fitted them to compensate for yellowish headlamps . . . which was eventually traced to the battery nearing its death - a case of trying to cure the symptoms without using logical fault diagnosis.

The link was very interesting, and should be read by everyone who is thinking about fitting HID lights. As I mentioned, they only give a brighter dip beam, so reducing your ability to see beyond them, when what is reallay required are better main beams. Maybe HID enthusiasts drive everywhere at nighton dipped beams - in other words they never get out of street light areas at night!
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Southernboy
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Southernboy »

....fit better than OEM light bulbs - get some acrylic polish and buff the main lenses of the headlights until they are clear as new.... you'll be surprised how much better your headlights can actually be.... :wink:
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gookah
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gookah »

Mike Fishwick wrote: Maybe HID enthusiasts drive everywhere at nighton dipped beams - in other words they never get out of street light areas at night!

I drive most of my 'dark hours' driving in traffic, so I cannot use my main beam, even in non-streetlight areas.
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
Mike Fishwick
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Re: HID conversion

Post by Mike Fishwick »

I really sympathise with all you people who have to live in the UK, where main beams are almost useless - except to give confusing signals to each other! Even going to the local cinema in Winter we have a 12 mile run, with almost no traffic in either direction, so main beam comes in for a lot of use. I just wish modern cars had decent long range lamps, and a dip beam which goes out when main beam is selected.
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gIzzE
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Re: HID conversion

Post by gIzzE »

The problem with most cars with aftermarket HID kits installed is they buy the wrong bloody one!!

The H7 hid comes in 2 guises, the regular H7 for a projector lens and an H7R for reflector style hedlamps.

The difference is massive, one blinds on coming traffic and the other doesn't, if it wasn't for numpties fitting regular H7 bulbs in non projector headlights there would not be the issue and hatred towards them that we have now.
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