What's a Z3M worth?

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John1950
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What's a Z3M worth?

Post by John1950 » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 15:04

I was idly scanning the press for current Zed prices and conditions and came across two Z3Ms.
I drooled and dreamed at them but decided you lot might like to have your eyes pop out.
Have a look at these two - and let's have some feedback. I think the greedy specimen asking just shy of £40,000 - yes, £40,000 for a '98 'M' is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Compare it with the other one - a '99 Dakar Yellow example:

1. http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/b ... ?logcode=p
2.http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/b ... ?logcode=p
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Southernboy
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Southernboy » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 15:46

Hi'ya John !! Nice to see your face again !!
I must say, The £40k car is stunning, and if I really consider the asking price, it's not a purchase price but an investment price. I have no doubt that the time will come in the next 20 - 30 years when these cars will fetch that price commonly, and examples like this will be the ones that'll fetch 3 times as much and more.
They are undoubtedly the "collectors" Z3 and anyone owning one should attempt to maintain the OEM status impeccably.
The yellow example is stunning too, and considering what I have just said, it's cheap at the price.
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Del
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Del » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 16:03

The problem with these immaculate, low mileage, rarer cars is that their "worth" is outside the scope of the normal trade price guide books and so it is a case of what people in the "market" will bid/pay. A UK RHD price of £40,000, from a private seller, seems a little hopeful in my view. Don't wish to insult anyone's treasured possession though - they are both beautiful and very desirable. :)

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Bowler » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 16:06

These cars should be driven, the yellow one superb, the blue one, may as well buy a painting.
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by 1977accident » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 16:15

Del is Right, They are worth whatever the market dictates. I agree the Estoril Blue one at £40k is steep. It is almost creating it's own market value! £15k for a nice condition low milage Dakar yellow seems fair. I think these cars are creeping up in value. The more cars that come onto the market priced highly, the quicker the general values will increase as other owners start to believe that theirs must be worth the same! Are they a worthy investment?? Maybe not purely from a financial point of view, but can you but a figure on driving pleasure??

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by BladeRunner919 » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 16:22

1977accident wrote: The more cars that come onto the market priced highly, the quicker the general values will increase as other owners start to believe that theirs must be worth the same!
Only if someone is willing to pay that, and that has to be seen in the context of other cars in the market. For £40k there are better investments to be made - a £40k Porshe 993 will increase in value from day one, whereas a £40k Z3M will only ever be worth that in the short to medium term if there is another buyer who believes in it as an investment at that price.

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by 1977accident » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 16:37

Only if someone is willing to pay that, and that has to be seen in the context of other cars in the market. For £40k there are better investments to be made - a £40k Porsche 993 will increase in value from day one, whereas a £40k Z3M will only ever be worth that in the short to medium term if there is another buyer who believes in it as an investment at that price.
True, I think what I was trying to say was the more cars that hit the market trying to fetch even half of that figure, the more people that perhaps bought higher milage cars a year or 2 ago for £8-10K will start to believe that they could ask more for theirs. I.e the top end dictating the lower end of the market.

A year ago, I had the choice of a couple of cars for around £8-9K, now there are few under £11-12K

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Southernboy » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 16:56

If a year agp £8k - £10k was considered top end in general terms, £12k+ in general terms rpresens a 20 -25% increase in value over the 12 months...Any financial investments offering those nett returns? :wink:
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by John1950 » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 19:25

Southernboy wrote:If a year agp £8k - £10k was considered top end in general terms, £12k+ in general terms rpresens a 20 -25% increase in value over the 12 months...Any financial investments offering those nett returns? :wink:
Hi everyone, yes I'm back - stand by your beds. Standards will now rise again.
Those of you who remember this aged old creep may remember I moved to Holland, but had to sell my 2.8 to get here (I still weep).

But, of those two examples I linked to, the Dakar Yellow is a year younger, in beautiful condition - far better than the ludicrous £40 grand blue jobbie. And, if we're thinking of investments here, then surely the yellow one is the better opportunity. It will give a far better return than the blue one initially which if someone is daft enough to pay for it will probably find that their 'investment' stalls until the rest of the 'M' world has caught up.

And talking of yellow. Is it me, but most yellow sports cars just don't seem right - the 'M' really does look the DBs though. I never used my Zed unless the sun shone and for driving around the continent, that's when Dakar Yellow really looks beautiful.
How can I get my hands on the money for a LHD version? I offer my body, or if that's not an incentive, I can do any driving or delivery jobs throughout the continent.
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Jonttt » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 21:05

The blue one s having a laugh but was bought from a main agent with warranty so you can assume a few facts:

- it's a good example for a main agent to put a used approved warranty on it
- the current owner paid over the odds for it

I can't believe however that he paid £40k as recent coupes sold through main agents sold for around that with lower mileage and they command a much bigger premium over the roadys. So I assume this is simply a speculative and not a genuine ad from someone not really looking to sell. A tad greedy you may say :lol:

Plus it has the wrong shadow chrome wheels for an S50 so not truly "original".

To me an S50 would need less than 10k miles to command a real premium anywhere like this like the 5k miler matt found a few years ago which was sold to a collector.

The yellow car is far the better buy IMHO but I've lost track of real market prices.

Ps the blue one has facelift grill yet is a pre facelift car mmmmmmmm if I was cynical front end parts replaced ? But certainly worth investigating further if paying a premium for an "original" car :wink:

Ps these cars are for driving, I have done 0 miles in mine in 18 months :lol:
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by pingu » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 22:37

Bowler wrote:These cars should be driven, the yellow one superb, the blue one, may as well buy a painting.
I agree. Using cars as an investment tool is madness. If you are lucky, the car may appreciate faster than the insurance, MOT and VED, but most people have no idea what the car actually costs them. They just look at purchase price v. sales price and exclude the ownership costs. Even the £40k one has lost a LOT of value since it was first sold. 15 years of inflation on £40k + all the ownership costs - and there's been little driving enjoyment.

A car will only inflate in value by either luck or by not using it and wrapping it in polythene.

Much better to buy it to use.

Much better to invest in something you can use as the value goes up (like a painting).

Re, what's a ZM worth? I reckon that you could probably still get one for around £5-7k.
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Bi11 » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 23:51

I think people are looking at coupe prices and assuming their roadster is worth the same. Anyone can ask what ever price they like, but whether someone is silly enough to pay that is another matter.

When I bought Shantybeater's, I expected it to lose about £1k in value a year, plus another £1k for maintenance, etc, not to make money.
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by BladeRunner919 » Wed 11 Feb, 2015 08:21

Jonttt wrote: So I assume this is simply a speculative and not a genuine ad from someone not really looking to sell.
There could be something to that: "yes darling, I know I have too many cars. Tell you what, I'll sell the BMW". Three months later: "I just don't understand it, I've not had any luck selling the BMW. I guess I'll just have to hang on to it for now, and try again another time".

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by pingu » Wed 11 Feb, 2015 09:56

Bi11 wrote:When I bought Shantybeater's, I expected it to lose about £1k in value a year, plus another £1k for maintenance, etc, not to make money.
Sensible thinking, but luck means that you won't be losing the £1k depreciation.

I also thought it was "forced to sell by SWMBO". I supect he paid £25-30k at Sytner's and he's just chancing his arm. Someone comes along and offers £5k below asking price and bingo :D .
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by the_youth » Wed 11 Feb, 2015 10:32

Anyone else notice that all interior pics of the blue one conveniently obscure the drivers side bolster. May not be intentional but it's always one of items top of the list to check when viewing a BMW....... £40k is far too steep. Maybe in another 10-15 years.....

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Jonttt » Wed 11 Feb, 2015 19:16

pingu wrote:
A car will only inflate in value by either luck or by not using it and wrapping it in polythene.
I beg to differ, my porsche 993 has increased in value by c180% in 2 years. I have compulsory spent on it (ie ignoring a lot of spend I have chosen but which add no value) less than £1500 including 2 years tax, insurance and servicing. You could argue there is a lost opportunity cost on the capital tied up but that is nowhere near 180%

Ps and that's not due to luck but foresight :wink:

I bought the car both as an investment AND hobby to drive / tinker with and it has been both.
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by pingu » Wed 11 Feb, 2015 21:17

All investments are risks.

It could easily go the other way through no fault of yours. An astronomical hike in VED for instance or having to pay VED for cars that are SORNed as well as "on the road". My 330 lost 33% of its value overnight when the new VED rates came in a few years ago.

The car world is too subject to political winds of change to risk investment (IMHO).

I consider it luck for the winds to not blow, or to blow in your favour (such as zero VED on pre-73 cars).
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by peter2b » Wed 11 Feb, 2015 21:52

The blue one has the same coloured seat as my z3
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by lightning » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:19

My 2002 3.0 M Sport is the same colour as that blue one, also has a hard top with it, and in near concours condition, but is worth a fraction of the value of even the yellow one.

I think the 3.0 is a bargain that has been missed so far. They are colour dependent though, there's some pretty bad combinations of interior/exterior about.

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Grazza » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:30

As someone that bought a Z3M at the end of Sept last year (having spent some time looking), the prices for normal cars (70k miles upwards) at the moment seem to be several thousand higher. Obviously condition, mileage etc play a big part and original, immaculate, very low mileage examples will always find a different market. Perhaps the market has moved, perhaps people are looking at the coupe and thinking the roadster is in the same market or perhaps its just the fact that there are not many up for sale, personally the sudden increase in value does not seem realistic.

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Tilly » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:48

Been reading all the posts on the value of the M.
I can definitely say mine has cost me money. Very few cars are good investment buys in the long term. You can make a quick buck if you buy low and sell higher, after a bit of work; the "Wheeler and Dealer" approach. But over the long term, especially if you use the car, you will lose money.
Of course there are the exceptions but these are usually rare cars, usually from a prestige maker, or race cars with a proven provenance.

Take my car. One of the first Ms to come off the production line( Feb 1997). LHD and original with 143,000Km on the clock and in my ownership for over 15 years. The body hasn’t been restored but mechanically in A1 condition. I have just spent many pounds having it totally mechanically overhauled and all of the underbody cleaned, repaired and waxoyled. That cost alone is close to the current value of the car. If you add that to the cost of maintenance over my ownership plus the initial purchase cost, even discounting currency appreciation, I have lost tens of thousands of pounds.
Those are the hard facts. The question is how do you factor in the pleasure aspect. Does it offset the monetary expenditure. In my case I can definitely say yes. For me it is a hobby and hobbies cost money. Unless you are a professional very few people make money out of playing sports, yet many indulge.

So my take, don’t expect to make money just enjoy the experience. :D

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Jonttt » Fri 13 Feb, 2015 00:13

pingu wrote:All investments are risks.

It could easily go the other way through no fault of yours. An astronomical hike in VED for instance or having to pay VED for cars that are SORNed as well as "on the road". My 330 lost 33% of its value overnight when the new VED rates came in a few years ago.

The car world is too subject to political winds of change to risk investment (IMHO).

I consider it luck for the winds to not blow, or to blow in your favour (such as zero VED on pre-73 cars).
I think it a safe bet no government will doing anything materially adverse to affect classic cars, not enough volume in them to be worth the political flack.

I think it's a safe bet 993's will continue to rise, one of the most undervalued classics out there and the market is just catching up, mine is one of c180 RHD 4S, not as rare as my S54 roady but the brand creates a higher value market.

Will be interesting to see how my Z3m will do. I don't keep it as an investment, purely as it's not worth releasing the capital to me and I can honestly say there is no Z3 I could ever replace it with. I don't know what I would value it at anyway but I'm pretty sure it's value will rise and worst case it will cost me net £0 to keep so why sell it. I like just "owning it" which I know will upset the "gotta be driven brigade"

Looking forward to April when people can invest part of there pensions in classics :lol:
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by pingu » Fri 13 Feb, 2015 00:54

Jonttt wrote:I like just "owning it" which I know will upset the "gotta be driven brigade"
Nothing wrong with that - I think you are right and that the car will appreciate at around the same rate as the normal fixed rate expenses (i.e. approx £750 pa)
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What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Boysie » Sun 15 Feb, 2015 22:58

Cars kept long enough are like property they go up and then crash, then level off, but historically they will rise, many of us wish we had kept several cars of our early days of driving.
I do :-)


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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by John1950 » Mon 16 Feb, 2015 10:30

An update on these two 'Ms' with vastly different prices - I noticed the Dakar Yellow one suddenly shot up in price by £1000 last week - and another £1000 this week!
As it hasn't sold, I wonder what prompted that?
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Jonttt » Mon 16 Feb, 2015 19:01

Not uncommon for dealers to put prices up like that. The logic is the car is not attracting the "right" audience. You have to remember with cars like these they don't have to turn them over quickly as with newer stock which start to loose value every 6 months etc..... If they can afford to tie up the cash in stock they can play around with the price. I've seen cars jump up in price by 20% and suddenly sell. Usually the buyer has got a hefty 10% off the sticker price and thinks he's got a good deal :lol:
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John1950
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by John1950 » Sat 28 Feb, 2015 12:00

John1950 wrote:An update on these two 'Ms' with vastly different prices - I noticed the Dakar Yellow one suddenly shot up in price by £1000 last week - and another £1000 this week!
As it hasn't sold, I wonder what prompted that?
A further update:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/b ... ?logcode=p

And this has been reduced from the gormless £40,000 to £36, then £32 and currently on £29,995. The Dakar Yellow beauty increased in price by £2000 - and then sold!
It's a strange world.... :roll:
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by abh29 » Sat 28 Feb, 2015 14:14

Interesting to see that on BMW web site national search for used cars brings up 3 Z3's that are available as AUC's via the dealer network.
Still putting full 12 month warranty on them.
all from Sytner various depots
2.8 Roadster 5656 miles £15,850
2.2 with Hardtop 73,225 miles £7950
Z3M Roadster 56792 miles £18,850
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Del » Sat 28 Feb, 2015 15:40

I think it's all a scam to attempt to drive the prices up :twisted:

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by lightning » Sun 01 Mar, 2015 13:40

I think you may be right to some extent.

It happens in the "Classic car" world, where a dealer will list a £12,000 car at an inflated price, maybe £20,000 and eventually somebody buys it, maybe a lottery winner.
Then, similar models are suddenly "worth £20,000"

It does not always work though. A dealer near me had a Ferrari Mondial 8 up at £18,995 when it was not worth more than £10,000.
He's now had it on his website for ten years. Values have gone up of course over the years. It's now gone up to £24,495 and that's well above the current market value for a Mondial 8.

Maybe he wants to keep it for himself!

(School Garage Whaley Bridge. Ferrari Mondial 8) "been in a private collection for the last ten years" it has indeed.....his used car stock lol

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by gookah » Sun 01 Mar, 2015 14:20

Even the shops do it. have a look at curry pc world for example.... "has been on sale previously for a higher price" . When they reduce it afterwards, it is a "bargain" when in effect it is the proper price. Asda recently got caught after having things at the sale price for longer than the higher price, this in law makes the sale price the normal price.

Every time we visit Asda we see so many sale notices and signs, yet come out wondering why it has cost so much.
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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by Thesurveyor » Wed 04 Mar, 2015 14:15

Now at £26,995, I notice that he has only had it 5 months, wonder what he paid from a main dealer with a warranty?

Nice of him test the water for the rest of us owners, lets hope the buyer (eventually) comes on here and tells us what they actually paid in the end.

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Re: What's a Z3M worth?

Post by bertiejaffa » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 03:06

please lets hope the buyer comes on here first - then we advise them of the proper sale price
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