So it's still not handling how I'd want...

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srichards
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  Z3 roadster 2.8

So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 15:25

I'm now at a loss as to what to do. My 2.8 has had 4 wheel alignment, new coil springs all round (Eibach) and new standard front shocks. It's also had ball joints and wish bone bushes. Frankly it still handles weird. The changes made have made it a little better, particularly the new shocks/springs. On smooth roads it is fine. No fighting. No arguments. It just wafts along happily. Bumpy roads and it feels like I have to fight with the car to keep it on the road as it wants to be anywhere but on the tarmac like it has a desperate need to go and chew grass in a field.

It has the standard 16 inch wheels with some goodyear tyres on it. They're still fairly new. They were on it when I got it. If they are absolutely the problem then I'd not hesitate to get rid ( would changing just the front two prove it could be them? )

There isn't another 2 seater out there that I'd want that does everything one of these does for sensible money. I've discounted everything else. This is why I'm persisting with it. What is the thing I have to do to make this car less mental? Would running different tyre pressures to book change anything? I feel there is a good handling car in there somewhere waiting to get out and just the right tweaks will make it happen.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Lancsbob » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 17:24

Yes i feel the same, its a damn shame as i really like the car but since buying it
have been disappointed with the way it tramlines on anything but smooth roads.
For a modern car & being a BMW i'm very surprised at having to replace different
bits to get a remedy. Have been collecting rubber mountings & poly bushes etc to
fit in the Spring but not going to throw shed loads of cash as some have.
My old TR's & MG's felt more stable & relaxing than th Z3, hopefully it will
improve after some work but it shouldn't need all this work.
Going by all the posts about it it shows it must have been a poor design.
Is the Z4 any better, did they learn by their mistakes?

Bob

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  Z3 roadster 2.8

Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 18:01

What tyres do you have on yours?

I think the Z4 handling wise is a lot better.

My previous car did a little tramlining and that was similar suspension design. It was nothing compared to this though.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Brian4 » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 19:15

Mine has Conti sport contact 3 on the front and Pirelli Pzero on the rear which are interesting in the wet.

The front end of the Z4 is a very similar set to the Z3 which is the same as the E36 but the rear of the Z3 is totally different. It has a 4 point location for the rear subframe whereas the Z3 only has 2 point based on the previous E30. Any play or wear in the rear beam bushes can also make the Z3 rear move over bumps in the road.

They are at least 14 years old now so rubber bits perish and wear out.

The front end of MG an TR was a double wishbone set up and very expensive to fit on modern cars but most high spec ones now have a form of double wishbone and a much better ride all round.
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by peter2b » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 20:19

my 2.2 goes round bends as if it's on rails no tramline on motorways or side roads still on standard suspension 16 inch wheels can't remember the make of tyres but so far haven't found the handling limit yeti think I will have to find a track to play on
peter2b

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Julie Z3 » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 20:37

my 2.2 goes round bends as if it's on rails no tramline Think yours must be the exception to the rule judging all the posts on tram lining and handling I've read over the last five years Brian!

We have a 2.8 and a later 3.0 litre and my young lads Yaris sport handles like it's on rails compared to these two :D

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Wookee » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 21:02

srichards wrote:I'm now at a loss as to what to do. My 2.8 has had 4 wheel alignment, new coil springs all round (Eibach) and new standard front shocks. It's also had ball joints and wish bone bushes.
One of the things I have not experienced with mine is Tramlining. My rear tyres are decent quality, but different makes etc and I run 16's with 31 psi all round. When I got the car the front tyres were illegal so I had them replaced with some cheapies, for now, and I too had an alignment check. They could only sort out the front because there isn't an adjustment on the rear short of changing the bushes. Did you actually watch what they did and what the end result was? On mine the rear toe is way out- the tolerance is +.15 to +.4 degrees and my left wheel is at -0.55 and the right is +1.3 the thrust angle is also some way out. I'm making a few changes to my knackered rear suspension, but aren't changing the wishbone bushes just yet. I then plan to take it back for an alignment check to see if that has improved things (I suspect it'll be marginal if any).

I'm not yet touching the front suspension nor any of the springs. I'm doing all of the rear ARB bushes (including the drop links), the rear struts and top mounts. This is all in an effort to sort out a 'skipping' rear end. I'll let you know how that goes.

With regards to the tramlining, and being new to Z3's, is there any difference with widebodied cars or those with heavier engines? Mine is a 2001 1.9.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Robert T » Thu 28 Jan, 2016 21:15

Mine 1.9 periodically suffers from tramlining. Fit new tyres and the tramlining goes away. As the tyres wear, it gradually comes back. They appear to wear evenly, so I don't know why this should be. Different tyre constructions may do better than others. Mine are coming up to 25k miles, so not far off being changed again (for only the third time!). You might try swapping the fronts to rear and vice versa, keeping them on the same side of the car, and see if that makes any difference (you can only do this if you are running the same size tyres front and rear - not on a staggered setup - but I don't think many 1.9s run staggered).

Cheers R.
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 00:49

I don't know whether it is tramlining or it is all just under the 'squiggly' and 'squirmy' over uneven surfaces. I can't tell which end starts it to be honest. I just know it feels wrong and it isn't that good to drive. It's meant to be a regular handy sized fun run about but I don't want to use it.

I also notice there is some sort of 'play' or weirdness when you change gear. Like a flumf feeling when it engages the gear. It's definitely right under your bum/back of the car. Is that due to rear beam bushes being worn?? That might be a pointer to what is up. I know the propshaft (?) bush/bushes/doodads have been done.

The alignment has been done twice. Once it wasn't quite right. The second time another place had it perfect. All within tolerances and all bob on.

I think I need to get several go-pros and put them all over the car then drive along a bumpy road and find out what it's up to!

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by ALPHA 3.0i Z3 » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 05:44

Scuttle shake. Its due to not having a rigid top. If you fit a hardtop it helps but tbh its part of the fun of owning a roadster. The coupe was voted one of the best handling cars ever made for the time, so if you want it all you will need to go down that route.
As I explained to my son...its like taking the top off a can or box, when all sides are present you have a pretty solid strong form. But as soon as you remove a top or side things begin to lose rigidity and flex. I believe front and rear strut braces help a lot if your suspension is in good condition.
You must admit though they are hard to beat for smiles with the rood down and the engine roaring.
Who says size doesn't matter? After a straight 6 3.0 litre....Its hard to go back .

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by alec.m » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 07:36

Hi, I did all you have done to try and eliminate tramlining but it wasn`t until I replaced the wishbone bushes with Powerflex purple bushes that it all but disappeared. New OEM bushes made very little difference on my car.

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lightning
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by lightning » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 07:41

I had a 2.8 Z3 and while l did not experience the handling issues mentioned above, it was not at it's best on poor road surfaces.

My 3.0 is the "M Sport" and is in a different league. I am not sure what exactly is different although the brochure says "lowered uprated suspension"
It's a bit firmer over potholes etc but the trade off is, it actually handles like a sports car. Mid corner bumps particularly, are taken at speed with no drama at all, where the 2.8 would be more of a handful.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Flight » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 08:54

I have followed this thread with interest. Like most Z3 owners I have searched for the silver bullet that would cure my car doing a tango on irregular road surfaces. I have done everything I could think of, such as replacing most suspension bushes all of which appeared to help, but not cure. I fitted a front strut brace but any improvement was undetectable. A four wheel alignment check revealed that each wheel was where it should be. I stiffened the front to rear axle assembly by making and fitting transverse and longitudinal braces. This made a substantial improvement, but again not a cure. I feel the car has insufficient torsional stiffness, which is a design problem, and affects most open top cars very little can be done to improve that. A very irregular section of road I use requires slowing, but my 1973 Lotus Elan hardly notices it. I found that lower tyre pressures help. However we have very nice and enjoyable cars, not perfect, but nice. Forget their shortcomings and accept them for what they are, a fast and comfortable express for open air motoring.
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srichards
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 09:21

The other soft top I had wasn't this bad. It was slightly hoppy over bumps until I replaced some rear bushes then it ignored them completely. Cutting the roof off is no excuse. The rest of the car is stiffened to compensate. BMW must know that.

So if the M sport ones don't behave this badly how do you get the M sport suspension set up on a 2.8?

Having driven about a bit over the local roads which are averagely bad it is the following I have a problem with:
Steering wheel yanked when driving over certain sized potholes. Not all of them do it. It's like Russian Roulette.
Steering wheel yanked when driving over white lines (!)
Steering wheel yanks in lorry ruts. The white lines maybe linked to lorry ruts and sunken road.

I can live with a slightly squirrely rear end over rough surfaces and bumpy roads. The vibration over same. Eibachs make it a bit firmer and a bit more crashy but the fore and aft sinking and pitching and rolling has gone. So that is much better. When it isn't on rough roads it is on rails. I like that. It just doesn't cope with normal roads. It should be able to make a better job of it.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Lancsbob » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 12:29

Yes, white lines, i can't believe it, mines the same, such a trifeling thing but it affects the steering wheel.
Russian Roulette's bang on. I wanted my wife to enjoy driving this car but the way it is at the
moment i wouldn't let her as she couldn't react quick enough to its unpredictable steering.
Hopefully new wishbones & poly bushes will improve it.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 13:10

I've had new wishbone bushes (poly ones) and they made no significant difference to that aspect of it.

I'm thinking of seeing if you can apply the M Sport spec geometry instead some how. If you could tame the tramlining and leave everything else the same then it would be a decent performer. As you can't really adjust the rear then it leaves the front to fiddle about with.

Looked at the old coil springs and the pair of shorter looking ones the newest black covered one is shorter than its matching one? Do coil springs get longer with age?!

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by bertiejaffa » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 13:15

Tyres - This is 99% of the problem always and should be the first thing changed. My 2.0l used to tramline and had Conti's on all round. I changed them last year to Barum and its never tramlined since.

As for the different suspension between the normal cars and the M, the M is much heavier in how it feels and how the suspension is set up. I am fortunate to own both types and the drive in each is very different (besides the obvious BHP), and I love both of them equally as much. The M is sometimes too hard, however the word "waft" perfectly describes the 2.0l, much softer and a nicer casual drive IMHO.

Seriously - change the tyres - (or come to mine and try mine on yours).

As for the comments regarding gear shifting - I have read that the Diff bush can sometimes cause gear change troubles, especially the common issue of having to select 3rd to then select 1st.
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srichards
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 14:20

Current tyres were pretty new and decent so I left them on not thinking that they could honestly be that bad. Other things I've done were things that were worn out.

I've not really had cars that are massively bothered by what tyres go on them. I usually just stick uniroyal rainsports or Falken Ze ones on. I've never really had massive tramlining on any car before, including ones with low profile tyres on big wheels and your firm coil over type suspension.

I shall investigate diff bushes. It does seem slightly better now the rear suspension is firmer.

Steering in the 2.8 feels quite heavy to me.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by BILLZ3 » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 18:25

HI, my 1998 1.9 had tramming issues on some of our rural roads and she was fitted with semi directional Michelin tyres on the front, changed these to Pristivos
225/45/17 and it was like driving a different car, no more fighting which way we were going :)
Bill

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Wookee » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 19:13

Interesting thread- I wish I had had mine for a bit longer on old tyres to compare as the swingometer seems to be heading in the direction of tyre choice :). I have Altrezzo cheapy things on the front and don't get any tramlining so perhaps it is only particular tyres and nothing to do with the quality of them :shrug

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by bertiejaffa » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 19:45

Many people go for Falkens - theres plenty of threads and comments on here about them. I have them on my //M (since I bought it) and they have been fine. As I say, the Barums on mine have sorted it fantastically - they are actually made by continental, obviously just another way to get extra market share - I think they were about £80/100 each so not the cheapest but for the difference in handling they are worth every penny
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by ALPHA 3.0i Z3 » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 20:30

I have owned many softtops, E30,E36, a golf Mk1 gti and currently the Z and an E46 and out of all the Z is the mist complete package I have owned. Slight leaks and wayward geometry are part of the fun. Also I have driven many other softops from an Astra to a 458 spider and all are less responsive on handling to their full top brothers.
Either I am lucky or the wind in my hair makes me forget.....Just enjoy and buy a coupe for the handling.
Btw one of the best handling cars I own is the RX8, but its no comparison for smiles to a ragtop Z at any speed.
D
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lightning
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by lightning » Fri 29 Jan, 2016 23:10

I'm pretty surprised to read all this, as my 3.0 seems absolutely fine in all areas. Tyres are Goodyear Eagle F1's and are almost new, although it was still fine on the old tyres when l got it and the rears were on the wear limiters.

The car has done 54,000 miles but is in particularly good condition underneath with no corrosion on the suspension parts. I don't find the suspension unduly hard at all, although my last car was a Lotus Elise S2.

Reading this thread makes me glad l went for the M Sport....although it was by chance. I remember the 2.8 being softer but don't recall it being as bad as described above.
Mileage on that was similar, about 50,000. Condition wise it was good, but not as good as this one.

srichards
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 00:53

3.0 has the M sport suspension I think. That's a different kettle of fish entirely.

It could be just a sub set of the 2.8s are like this. Mine was built October 98. It seems a bit of a cross over time.

Ultimate question does remain as to exactly what to change on geometry to reduce tramlining. Mcpherson strut front end is the same as last car. That didn't tramline hardly at all. It was mild. This is severe. It needs to be reduced down to acceptable.

I've found my print out from demon tweeks. That's got the settings for both the standard car and the M sport as they tested it as an M sport by mistake first! Interestingly it's the same apart from the front caster. In the M sport that's a lot higher range: 7-8 degrees when the standard car is 3 to 4. Toe and camber is otherwise all set up the same.

Would changing caster to be in a higher range reduce tramlining and what other affects would it have?
Last edited by srichards on Sat 30 Jan, 2016 09:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Tufarlian » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 09:46

May car, a 3.0, used to tramline badly. I read lots of posts on here and worked through the list.

Front bushes (Powerflex), including new lower suspension arms.
Strut brace. No difference (so I sold it).
Rear shocks and top mounts. Better ride but still tramlined.
Front spring broke so new front springs, uprights and top mounts. Better, but still tramlined.
Four new Avon ZV5 tyres. Tramlining gone!

Took about 18 months to work through that lot :-)

Old tyres were Continentals and had plenty of tread at first, but always tramlined.
No idea if new tyres would have sorted it if I hadn't already done the other stuff. I suspect not.

It's now a much nicer car to drive and looks like it will be a keeper after all.

Mark

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lightning
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by lightning » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 10:17

The "M Sport" package was an optional extra on the 3.0.

Apart from the suspension you also get the "M" steering wheel/gear knob, sports seats, brushed alloy centre console trim and l think the M front grille.
It says "lowered and uprated" suspension so l guess l have different shocks and springs and l don't know what else.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Brian H » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 10:18

Sounds like you've had a bit of a journey so far, Im a little sceptical regarding the 4 wheel alignment! this cannot be done on a Z3 unless you have have fitted the rear caster/camber adjustment plates and/or bushes. The advise given is good, a lot of this is down to tyres but as our cars get older they do suffer from the bushes getting past their best.

Do you have another Zedder local to you that you could change of the wheels/tyre combo and take it for a run? this would a least give you the piece of mind that it is or is not connected to your tyre choice.

Another big factor in this I believe is the rear beam bushes, once these are worn you will have a lot of play in the rear of the car which can lead to sloppy handling on uneven surfaces. A pig to change but worth it once done.

Try the wheel change first as this is cheap.

HTH

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Brian H
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Brian H » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 10:20

lightning wrote:The "M Sport" package was an optional extra on the 3.0.

Apart from the suspension you also get the "M" steering wheel/gear knob, sports seats, brushed alloy centre console trim and l think the M front grille.
It says "lowered and uprated" suspension so l guess l have different shocks and springs and l don't know what else.
The M Sport package is standard on the 3.0i (Sport) but not the 3.0, as you stated slightly different spring rate and it also sits 15mm lower than stock.

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Deano1712
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Deano1712 » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 12:01

I would check your rear shocks. You say you have changed the fronts but dont mention rears. I changed mine at 60k. The old ones were knackered and the car was transformed with new shocks.
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srichards
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 12:11

New rear shocks are likely to be changed soon. I didn't want to do everything at once as then you don't find out what individual changes do. Plus it's had enough spent on it.

Rear beam bushes and rear shocks sound something sensible to do together.

I'll probably try more positive caster first to see whether that makes much of a difference. That's a quick easy change that can be undone.

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lightning
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by lightning » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 14:29

Brian H wrote:
lightning wrote:The "M Sport" package was an optional extra on the 3.0.

Apart from the suspension you also get the "M" steering wheel/gear knob, sports seats, brushed alloy centre console trim and l think the M front grille.
It says "lowered and uprated" suspension so l guess l have different shocks and springs and l don't know what else.
The M Sport package is standard on the 3.0i (Sport) but not the 3.0, as you stated slightly different spring rate and it also sits 15mm lower than stock.
Ah l see, so l have the 3.0 "Sport" then. A different model, rather than an option on the 3.0

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Del » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 21:41

Deano1712 wrote: would check your rear shocks. You say you have changed the fronts but dont mention rears. I changed mine at 60k. The old ones were knackered and the car was transformed with new shocks.
I agree, I left a year between changing the fronts first, followed by the rears - what a difference. The car handled so much better after the rears were changed. As Brian also said, the rear sub-frame bushes can also cause a general "wobbliness" at the rear.

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pingu
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by pingu » Sat 30 Jan, 2016 23:14

Before spending any more money, I'd get under the car with a pry bar and check for play in all the bushes and all the knuckle joints. Check the car with the car in the running position, not with the wheels hanging free.

Also check for play in the wheel bearings and track rod ends. This needs to be done with the wheels in the air.

While you are under there, check for any damage. Compare side to side.

Check RealOEM to see what tyres BMW recommend. If these are available, try getting those next time. I only fit the recommended tyres and I've never had a problem. Others will scoff, but that is my experience, for what it's worth.

Here's the approved list for a 06/1997 2.8 (I don't know what date yours is)...

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/en/showparts ... Id=85_0045

BMW Approved tyres have a star marking and you should use these if possible. If not, use the same make and name without the star. If you use a make and name that is not on the list, you might as well fit budgets unless you really know what you are doing - and (unless you are a tyre technology expert) none of us do.

http://www.camskill.co.uk/m62b0s5035p0/ ... R16_OE_BMW

http://www.camskill.co.uk/m54b0s7683p0/ ... R17_OE_BMW
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Sun 31 Jan, 2016 17:48

I think all the bushes were checked. All fine apart from the wishbone ones which I've already replaced. I can ask them to check them again and make sure the wheels aren't in the air. I don't know whether they were last time.

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pingu
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by pingu » Sun 31 Jan, 2016 20:08

srichards wrote:I think all the bushes were checked. All fine apart from the wishbone ones which I've already replaced. I can ask them to check them again and make sure the wheels aren't in the air. I don't know whether they were last time.
The thing about the wheels being off the ground is that the suspension is at full travel, so it is already pushed against a stop. If the weight is on the wheels, the bushes should be in a neutral position.

Are you not able to do it yourself?
Pingu

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Mon 01 Feb, 2016 11:58

pingu wrote:
srichards wrote:I think all the bushes were checked. All fine apart from the wishbone ones which I've already replaced. I can ask them to check them again and make sure the wheels aren't in the air. I don't know whether they were last time.
The thing about the wheels being off the ground is that the suspension is at full travel, so it is already pushed against a stop. If the weight is on the wheels, the bushes should be in a neutral position.

Are you not able to do it yourself?
I don't have a pit or a pry bar and there is no way I'd be yanking at things under a car. Recipe for disaster as I'm a :dunce: with that kind of thing!

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peterandjenny
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by peterandjenny » Mon 01 Feb, 2016 15:35

As others have noticed tires make all the difference our old car with new directional Michelin rubber on ( fitted at a BMW dealer ) never felt planted on the road so much so that it was worrying . Swapped to non directional falkens and it was massively better.

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c_w
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by c_w » Mon 01 Feb, 2016 20:36

I think it's more that the Z3 is very sensitive to tyres because of it's inherent susceptibility to tramlining.
ALPHA 3.0i Z3 wrote:Scuttle shake. Its due to not having a rigid top. If you fit a hardtop it helps but tbh its part of the fun of owning a roadster. The coupe was voted one of the best handling cars ever made for the time, so if you want it all you will need to go down that route.
As I explained to my son...its like taking the top off a can or box, when all sides are present you have a pretty solid strong form. But as soon as you remove a top or side things begin to lose rigidity and flex. I believe front and rear strut braces help a lot if your suspension is in good condition.
You must admit though they are hard to beat for smiles with the rood down and the engine roaring.
Thing is though the Z3 was a convertible from the start, so you would expect BMW to have been designed it from the outset not to be wobbly. It's a shame as after the Z3, and post 2000, torsional rigidity has really taken off in all cars and is a big feature of making a car ride and handle well, as well as being very strong. But you're right the Coupe doesn't suffer any of it, not least because the roof stiffens up the car massively, but the M suspension helps (in particular the caster).

I couldn't bear my 2.8, such a nice car on the right [smooth] road at night with the roof down, but on regular urban roads very annoying and tiresome with the steering wheel and dash shaking about. My Coupe is quite low, have some low offset ET13 8.5J wheels on the front, swapped z3m top mounts (a lot of camber) and drives pretty tamely.

The M Sport suspension on the 3.0 is not the same as the Z3M suspension, so I can't see why it would be much different to the regular suspension in terms of susceptibility to tramlining. The Z3M has different top mounts and arms which affect geometry.

E36 M3 offset bushes would probably help (and alignment afterwards). Also fit some "inserts" or fill the voids in the rear subframe bushes (the two large ones at either side of the car in front of the rear wheels) - this reduces rear wheel steer massively.
Bracing might help also, but it's no ever going to go completely.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Gazza » Mon 01 Feb, 2016 21:26

With regards to the "inserts", there is a thread in the Z3 Knowledge Base by Mike Fishwick

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... =18&t=9153
Gazza

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srichards
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Tue 02 Feb, 2016 17:12

The faster you drive the worse it gets. It seems to be fairly ok at 30mph. Once you are over 40 it's noticeably more unstable. By the time you are at 50-60 it's impossible to predict on rougher roads.

As far as I can tell it's the deeper but smaller potholes that get it. If a sunken grid is wider than a wheel and all sunken. It's not so bothered. If it's very deep but you hit it square it's not so bad but it is more wobbly. If it's a deep hole but small enough to hit a corner of a tyre then it's anyone's guess where it's going next. It seems to be the corner hits that really bother it. If you have a sunken grid with one bit with a sharp potholed edge then that sends it off course at many speeds.

I've spent a the last few journeys aiming at different potholes and road defects!

It definitely needs alignment as it is wiggling its butt down the road like a cat getting ready to jump on a mouse. If alignment doesn't take the rear wiggle away then the rear beam bushes and whatever stops the rear from moving sideways are a definite necessity.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by stevov » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 07:08

Until you make sure of the condition of the suspension components any discussion on handling is pointless. Once you know the mechanics are right then you can move on to tyre choice, ride heights and geometry settings. It's taken me a few months to get mine where I am happy with it at speed on b roads but I also realise that it is never going to handle like my evo did. On less than perfect roads this car is going to move about. It's part of the fun.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Del » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 10:41

stevov wrote:Until you make sure of the condition of the suspension components any discussion on handling is pointless.

I agree. Your problem doesn't sound like simple tramlining - your verbal description sounds more like bad suspension with the shock absorbers failing to dampen the spring oscillation, meaning continual wheel bounce and loss of traction.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 11:03

It has had front shocks already but the wheel yanking out of the hand behaviour hasn't changed with changing those.

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c_w
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by c_w » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 13:42

Also be aware (was mentioned earlier I think) that only the front tracking is adjustable on these cars, assuming the rear bushes are ok there's nothing on the rear that can be adjusted.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Lewy » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 18:58

This sounds exactly what I had and in fact it was the rear diff mount bushes but made much worse by the wrong tyre choice. It'd be well worth dropping into your local indy and pay their check over fee to get some sound advice. For me an almost complete rebuild of the back end and change of tyres totally transformed the car. I went for Hankooks for what it's worth.

The car itself doesn't tramline but worn parts and / or wrong tyre choice can make it happen, just like any car.

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Althulas
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Althulas » Wed 03 Feb, 2016 23:10

Agree with tyres having an effect I had some directional Tyos fitted on the rear while I still had good directional Goodyear F1 on the front but this combo had me fighting with the steering wheel it felt like a daemon had possessed my car. A change to Falkens non directional tread pattern totally changed the car not one hint of tramlining but there are a few issues which are caused by my knackered shocks and I'm sure if I dug deeper a poly bush change all round will totally transform it but just a change of tyres made a massive difference.
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by Bonzo » Thu 04 Feb, 2016 00:30

When I bought Z3lda she had Avon ZV5's on the back and part worn Michelin's on the front and she tramlined quite badly at times. I put new ZV5's on the front and the transformation was dramatic, NO tramlining, like driving a different car!
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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Thu 04 Feb, 2016 08:23

I was quite fancying michelin cross climates as next tyres. I thought being all season they'd be relatively squishy as well as able to cope with any kind of weather. Don't seem to be able to get them in 225/50 on a 16 yet. They do seem to do them in the 205/55 R16 which is mentioned in the book for mud and snow. Has anyone tried this size tyre on a 2.8 with any tyre at all?

The falkens I had before were a hard tyre. It was the 912/914 sort not the 452. Are the 452s squishy?

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by stevov » Thu 04 Feb, 2016 09:08

I'm running uniroyal rainsport 3.brilliant wet and very good dry tyre.

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Re: So it's still not handling how I'd want...

Post by srichards » Thu 04 Feb, 2016 14:35

Rainsports are my favourite tyres. I didn't know whether it would like them.

Well it's been aligned and it's better. Rear bushes are fine. Front toe has been increased, negative camber reduced. Not sure about caster angle. I notice the steering doesn't feel heavy like it did. It's tramlining a lot less.

It's now acceptable rather than being a complete nightmare!

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