HELP needed total loss of power

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MpowerRob
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: North London/Cockfosters

HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 10:08

Hi all, could really do with some help please, went to go for a drive in the Z3 (2.8m52tu) and when I started it and went to drive off the ASC light came on and the car is idling funny when I try to accelerate there is no power and it will only rev to 1500 rpm even with accelerator flat to the floor, have tried turning off but same problem every time :(

The car hadnt been used for around a week,other than being moved on and of the drive so only started for a few seconds then shut off, not sure if this has caused a problem :?:

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

gookah
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  Z3 roadster 2.8

Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by gookah » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 14:23

has the battery died, most common cause of all of this type of thing. Check the voltage
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Z3 2.8 Progress Journal (Mine)
Z3 1.9 Sport Progress Journal (Wifey's)

I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..

MpowerRob
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 17:06

No battery hasn't died, the only other thing I can think is I changed the rear springs for eibach lowerings springs recently,could I have damaged a wire that relates to the ASC light being on :?:

John Wilson
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by John Wilson » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 18:04

It could be the wheel sensors need cleaning. My Z3 used to do the same when I first had it. When the ASC light comes on the power is reduced to a different mode. Now I remove and clean the sensors once a year and never have that trouble. The first time you do it, its hard because they get rusted in and you have to be careful not to shear the allen head bolt, but after that it becomes an easy routine task.

MpowerRob
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Thu 11 Feb, 2016 17:52

Hi guys thanks for the replies, so I have charged the battery and cleaned the passenger side wheel speed sensor started the car but still the same problem, the car idles fine with no warning lights but as soon as you apply any revs the ASC light comes on and it idles really lumpy :?:

Will clean the drivers side speed sensor tomorrow to see if that makes any difference.

John Wilson when your speed sensors were causing a problem how exactly did it effect the revs/idle

Any other ideas everyone.

John Wilson
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Location: Diss

Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by John Wilson » Thu 11 Feb, 2016 18:26

I dont think it affected the idle much on mine, or when you went at constant speed on the level. It was when you tried to accelerate or went uphill, there was no power there. If it is the sensors, it will take one or two journeys forthem to reset. I see you cleaned only one. They would probably all need doing unless a diagnostics tool has indicated that one.

Del
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by Del » Thu 11 Feb, 2016 22:51

My understanding of this ASC/DSC system is that it is progressive and that its ultimate influence in a more severe skid is that it can cut fuelling and limit revs in order to bring the car under control. It sounds to me as if you have some wheel sensor given an incorrect reading which is being interpreted by the ECU as a severe skid.

MpowerRob
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Fri 12 Feb, 2016 11:16

Ok I'm going to try and check the other 3 wheel sensors today

Question,Would a bad wheel sensor make the car completely un driveable as in my case :?:

srichards
Joined: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 09:24
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by srichards » Fri 12 Feb, 2016 11:24

Is there a button to turn the DSC off? I'd try doing that to confirm symptoms go away.

Does it fail to rev when you are in neutral too? If it's idling funny then I'd think that wasn't the DSC at work and there is something else wrong instead.

MpowerRob
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Fri 12 Feb, 2016 12:14

Have tried turning off the asc button, but as soon as I apply any revs the engine starts to hesitate in neutral or in gear, I tried to drive it but it will just kangaroo at very low speed as will only rev to around 1500 then losses power then revs to 1500 then looses power.

Is there a way to disconnect the ASC completely to see if there will be any difference?

srichards
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  Z3 roadster 2.8

Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by srichards » Fri 12 Feb, 2016 14:21

If it won't rev in neutral or with DSC/ASC turned off then I doubt if it is anything to do with that. It's an old system so the ASC etc would be off off when turned off.

Things like faulty sensors, idle control system etc are more likely. I think it's probably time to get out the code reader or find a local bmw place that can find out what is wrong. Check for cracked engine emission control or air intake hoses as they can do some weird stuff like this when they let air in where they shouldn't.

MpowerRob
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  Z3 roadster 2.8
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Fri 12 Feb, 2016 14:42

Ok so I ordered a code reader of ebay it arrived in one day!!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391026596998 (If anyone is interested)

Plugged in and read codes P0505 idle air control system :?:

Will start googling to see what I can find, any ideas on this guys :?:

Thanks for all the help so far :thumb:

John Wilson
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by John Wilson » Fri 12 Feb, 2016 16:32

There is the idle control valve that could need cleaning out. I've done mine because of idling issues, but I dont know why this would affect the ASC light. I did some pics of the job here.
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=43422
It's not a bad job but the rubber boots can be a bit of a pain to get off because of the position of the jubillee clips. There's other postings of the job as well as mine elsewhere.

therealdb1
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  Z3 roadster 2.0

Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by therealdb1 » Fri 12 Feb, 2016 22:58

Good news! It's nothing to do with DSC or ASC.
It sounds like an air leak which can be confirmed by resetting the code and checking that it recurrs when you try to drive the car.
This then means old fashioned detective work with your fingers and eyes.
You will need to check every rubber hose on the inlet side but don't just look at them you need to squeeze them too.
Very often a hose will look ok but when you squeeze it the cracks open up.
Don't forget to check the far side of the hoses too that you generally cannot see when they are fitted on the car so you may have to take them off and turn them over.
It may take a while to find the culprit but at least it should be a cheap fix when you find the perished hose.

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pingu
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by pingu » Sat 13 Feb, 2016 18:46

If you still have trouble, you should invest in a BMW-specific code reader. You will also need a laptop or a long lead and good eyes to run it from a PC.
Pingu

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stevov
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by stevov » Sun 14 Feb, 2016 16:18

Check the throttle body. Chances are the butterfly valve is stuck,dirty. Clean it. The secondary valve that cuts power when the asc kicks in is stuck keeping the asc light on.

MpowerRob
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Tue 16 Feb, 2016 17:10

Ok firstly a massive thanks to all for advice so far, I have spent some time today taking out DISA,ICV and throttle body , all are pretty filthy the throttle body seems to be jammed should it be free moving or not and is there a way to test/move it whilst out of the car. Will post a picture up shortly.

MpowerRob
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Tue 16 Feb, 2016 17:15

Ok firstly a massive thanks to all for advice so far, I have spent some time today taking out DISA,ICV and throttle body , all are pretty filthy the throttle body seems to be jammed should it be free moving or not and is there a way to test/move it whilst out of the car (engine m52TU).



Image
Image

gookah
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by gookah » Tue 16 Feb, 2016 22:06

the flap should open freely, just against the resistance of the spring. That is filthy
Use some cleaner and a scotchbrite pad after opening the flap
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Z3 2.8 Progress Journal (Mine)
Z3 1.9 Sport Progress Journal (Wifey's)

I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..

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stevov
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by stevov » Tue 16 Feb, 2016 22:16

As gookah says that valve should move freely. It should move when you work the throttle lever..try not to force things.

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Southernboy
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by Southernboy » Wed 17 Feb, 2016 09:40

The above is incorrect. As per your pic, you are holding the throttle body by the electric motor which operates the flap / throttle. The motor / throttle when fotted and connected, is activated by a potentiometer which is fitted to the accl pedal - (fly by wire system). If your car had a throttle cable, then you would be able to operate the throttle flap manually once disconnected/ removed, or by manually operating the throttle cable mechanism with the part installed. Your throttle flap is not stuck.
If you want to move it manually, you will need to remove the motor. That will allow you to clean it thoroughly. Note the return spring on the opposite side - you will need to make sure that it is correctly fitted so that it operates as it does in it's current assembled position. Personally, I would clean the throttle as best as possible without removing the motor and possibly save yourself extra hassles. You can approach the throttle from both sides anyhow, and that should be adequate. Alternaely, connect the motor again in the engine compartment, and switch the ignition on, have someone depress the accl pedal and that should move the throttle flap (actually called a butterfly)... obviously you don't need it fitted to the car to do this, but may need it to be earthed to the car if it doesn't have a dedicated earth link in the connector.
"Normal is overrated"
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MpowerRob
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Thu 18 Feb, 2016 08:00

Can I clean the throttle butterfly with carb cleaner? As I've seen various info saying you can't as its Teflon lined? don't think there's much lining left on mine it's covered in crap :lol:

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Southernboy
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by Southernboy » Thu 18 Feb, 2016 08:11

I doubt it's teflon coated... It wouldn't last 15 years being rubbed by the butterfly.... so I would say it'll be fine using carb cleaner. Just be careful not to scratch the surface rubbing off any crusty deposits. Might be sensible to "soak" it in a can of WD40 without submerging the electric motor though. That will soften any harder deposits, then use a decent small paint brush and the carb cleaner to wash out the muck. Make sure you don't get any brush bristles stuck between the butterfly and the bore.
The motor should be pretty much "waterproof" since it's constantly exposed to weather etc when fitted, so you don't have to be totally anal about getting liquids on it. :wink:
"Normal is overrated"
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gookah
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by gookah » Thu 18 Feb, 2016 16:58

Southernboy wrote:The above is incorrect. As per your pic, you are holding the throttle body by the electric motor which operates the flap / throttle. The motor / throttle when fotted and connected, is activated by a potentiometer which is fitted to the accl pedal - (fly by wire system). If your car had a throttle cable, then you would be able to operate the throttle flap manually once disconnected/ removed, or by manually operating the throttle cable mechanism with the part installed. Your throttle flap is not stuck.
If you want to move it manually, you will need to remove the motor. That will allow you to clean it thoroughly. Note the return spring on the opposite side - you will need to make sure that it is correctly fitted so that it operates as it does in it's current assembled position. Personally, I would clean the throttle as best as possible without removing the motor and possibly save yourself extra hassles. You can approach the throttle from both sides anyhow, and that should be adequate. Alternaely, connect the motor again in the engine compartment, and switch the ignition on, have someone depress the accl pedal and that should move the throttle flap (actually called a butterfly)... obviously you don't need it fitted to the car to do this, but may need it to be earthed to the car if it doesn't have a dedicated earth link in the connector.

NO you are incorrect.


Image


This throttle body has both a motor and a cable. It is a hybrid (not either or) M52TU engine like mine.
The cable is used by the accelerator pedal, the motor is used by the ASC and cruise control.
I have had mine off and my sons off and they both turn without power by turning the cable end

see here where I have cleaned mine:.
Image
The cut away on mine is for the M54 manifold swap I did.

I have cleaned mine by easily turning the flap, and using scotchbrite.
and yes my ASC still cuts power and my cruise control still works.


apologies will be accepted with a piece of humble pie..
Last edited by gookah on Thu 18 Feb, 2016 17:07, edited 2 times in total.
Image

Z3 2.8 Progress Journal (Mine)
Z3 1.9 Sport Progress Journal (Wifey's)

I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..

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Southernboy
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by Southernboy » Thu 18 Feb, 2016 17:05

eating the rest of the pie myself.... :oops: . :D
"Normal is overrated"
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gookah
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by gookah » Thu 18 Feb, 2016 17:09

Southernboy wrote:eating the rest of the pie myself.... :oops: . :D
And so you should TUT TUT.... :D
Image

Z3 2.8 Progress Journal (Mine)
Z3 1.9 Sport Progress Journal (Wifey's)

I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..

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Southernboy
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by Southernboy » Thu 18 Feb, 2016 17:13

:dunce: ......... :wave
"Normal is overrated"
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John Wilson
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by John Wilson » Thu 18 Feb, 2016 17:38

I just love this kind of thread. It's like everyone is there leaning over the bonnet chipping in with advice. Cant wait till its all back together and it's fired up.

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stevov
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by stevov » Fri 19 Feb, 2016 06:54

Thank you for your confirmation gookah. :thumb: :thumb:

MpowerRob
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 17:16

Ok all, the misses incosiderately decided to go into labour :roll: with our third child so haven't had a chance to work on the z until last night.

So I left the butterfly sitting in carb/intake cleaner overnight and with a little push it came free :-D it now moves freely when you move the throttle cable end, I have just spent the last 3 hours cleaning all the parts I took out and am going to start putting all back together so fingers crossed.

Thanks again to all for your input.

Here's a pic of the TB after cleaning.
Image

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stevov
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by stevov » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 17:31

Congratulations on the birth. Glad to see the throttle behaving itself again.

John Wilson
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by John Wilson » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 19:07

Giving birth is very similar. The butterfly opens and the baby comes out. At least, I, think that's what happens.

bertiejaffa
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by bertiejaffa » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 19:49

John Wilson wrote:Giving birth is very similar. The butterfly opens and the baby comes out. At least, I, think that's what happens.
Butterfly? I thought it was a Stork?
Here come the girls.....
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lmrdave
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by lmrdave » Sun 21 Feb, 2016 21:02

Check the cat!! Sounds similar to my problems. Not the ask though.

Good luck.
1998 Z3 2.8 Arctic Silver
1991 Mazda MX5
1987 Nissan Silvia

MpowerRob
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by MpowerRob » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 11:55

Update, I've put all back together and Wow we're back in business the Z is back on the road, I took it out for a good drive :twisted: and all the warning lights went out and what a difference the car noticeably idles better now and seems to be abit more responsive I am really chuffed, :D

I hate to think how much it would have cost to get sorted at a garage you lot have saved me a fortune I reckon, drinks are on me at the next meet, thanks to all who have chipped in with advice :bow

One more thing what would have caused the TB to seize up so badly is it just 17 years of carbon :?:

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stevov
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Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by stevov » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 17:32

What sort of filtration are you using. My mates acted up after a waterpump failure and his cone filter sucked in coolant which caused the butterfly to stick after it sat for a couple days

Del
Joined: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 18:35
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: HELP needed total loss of power

Post by Del » Fri 26 Feb, 2016 22:54

They all get a bit dirty over time but yours looks particularly so. Has your car had one of those aftermarket air filters fitted which requires it to be oiled from time to time? - personally I stick to the OE filter box and traditional paper air filters in my cars - just keep the filters relatively clean. OE servicing typically keeps them in for 4-years, I tend to change every 2 years.

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