Engine rattle oil pump?

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Wavesong
Joined: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 18:46
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  Z3 roadster 2.0

Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Wavesong » Tue 31 May, 2016 12:56

I have previously posted on an engine rattle buzzing noise evident on my Z3 2.0 which only occurs at a specific temp and rev during warm up. I have replaced the DISA valve which it was hoped and thought, was causing the noise. It has improved the car but it has not had any effect on the noise. I have now found a video on YouTube of exactly what I am describing and there is a BMW technical bulletin apparently saying that it has no lasting effect on the life of the engine. Some pointers say that replacing the oil pump cures it but this doesn't seem conclusive. Until I found this video, I was on the verge of selling the car as I just couldn't get to the bottom of it and was becoming frustrated. Anybody out there able to add to this with a cure or assurance not to worry about it? I have realised that this has become more regular since I changed my engine oil which may be a different viscosity to what was in there before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6200R3c-l5A

bertiejaffa
Joined: Fri 26 Jul, 2013 10:28
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  M roadster S50
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Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by bertiejaffa » Tue 31 May, 2016 15:29

It sounds very similar to other videos I have seen recently where the Engine is suffering the vanos growl... I'm sure someone will be along shortly to confirm their thoughts.

EDIT: this is the thread I was watching

https://zroadster.org/threads/s50-vanos.8780/
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Wavesong
Joined: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 18:46
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  Z3 roadster 2.0

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Wavesong » Tue 31 May, 2016 16:39

Yes, I did suspect Vanos however, the symptoms are not the same as it is temperature and rev dependent, does not do it on tick over and completely disappears once the engine is completely warm and doesn't return until the engine is restarted from cold meaning it has to go through the critical temperature range and even then, only at a particular rev. The sound is similar but not the circumstances.

Also, the car starts instantly, the idle is smooth with no hesitations and power delivery seems normal, no hiccups and is up to par.

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stevov
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Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by stevov » Wed 01 Jun, 2016 06:45

As you have said this changed and became more apparent after an oil change. What oil an filter did you use.

Wavesong
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  Z3 roadster 2.0

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Wavesong » Wed 01 Jun, 2016 08:42

Oil used was 5/40 fully synthetic. I wish I knew what was in there before but the actual oil used by the previous on his last service, isn't recorded. I wonder if a change of grade would make a difference and if so, to what?

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stevov
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Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by stevov » Wed 01 Jun, 2016 08:48

I didn't mean viscosity I meant brand. Despite what the weekend warriors say there is a difference. Cheap oil is cheap for a reason.

Wavesong
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  Z3 roadster 2.0

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Wavesong » Wed 01 Jun, 2016 10:47

A good question and I don't know as it was changed by my local garage! It seems to me my next step is to change the oil myself with a good quality one and see if that makes a difference? Any suggestions as to brand and viscosity?

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stevov
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Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by stevov » Wed 01 Jun, 2016 11:01

Mobil 1 0w40, shell helix ultra 5w40 or Petronas Syntium 3000av 5w40. Don't forget a good quality oil filter.Mann is what i use as they are oem recognised.

bertiejaffa
Joined: Fri 26 Jul, 2013 10:28
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  M roadster S50
Location: Manchester

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by bertiejaffa » Wed 01 Jun, 2016 11:08

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Zedbedee
Joined: Sun 15 Mar, 2009 20:04
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  Z3 roadster 2.0
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Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Zedbedee » Fri 03 Jun, 2016 16:47

If you only hear the noise when the engine is cold at about 1800 rpm it is almost certain to be a Vanos problem. A combination of slight wear in the thrust bearings, slight wear in the helical splines linking the Vanos to the camshafts and the almost certain failed Vanos seals.
I did several posts about this and ended up fitting a set of new seals from i6automotive which are manufactured from the correct material for use with mineral oil and elevated temperatures. I also modified the thrust bearing spacers to remove excess endplay. The post should be here http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... os#p388121.
It is now some time since I did this and the car is much smoother and more flexible, I would also say that the fuel consumption has improved but I can't be bothered to record mileage and fuel bought.
Good luck with this, well worth sorting and the seals, Vanos gasket and new valve cover gasket should only cost about £60 or so.

Del
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Del » Fri 03 Jun, 2016 17:27

Sorry to hear it's not completely cured by the DISA replacement. My guess would be the VANOS - you don't tend to hear of the oil pumps causing problems on these cars. Engine oil recommendations have tended to evolve over the years. When these engines were first designed I would guess that semi-synthetic 10W-40 was the trendy choice - that evolved into fully synthetic 5W-40 (I use in my 1.9). Many modern cars today use fully synthetic 5W-30 - which I would guess would be the recommendation on many "product finder" oil sites today. High performance race/high revving engines often use something where the higher figure is 60, which would not be necessary for standard, non-M Z3s.

Euro Car Parts fully synthetic 5W-40 is often around £17 for 5 litres and has BMW approval.

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stevov
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Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by stevov » Fri 03 Jun, 2016 18:27

To the best of my knowledge Bmw has not approved any triple qx oils. Meets the spec is not the same as manufacture approval. The only oils by triple qx with manufacturer approval as far as I know are 2 for vag and one for Mercedes. Getting manufacturer approval ain't cheap and if you look at the prices of the 3 approved oils you'll find they are more expensive. I deal with euro every day and bulk buy my Petronas oils from them.When speaking to their managers and technical staff no one can tell me who makes their oils. That in itself speaks volumes because if it was a name manufacturer it would be to their benefit to make it known.

Del
Joined: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 18:35
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Del » Sat 04 Jun, 2016 09:41

Off the container in my garage:- Triple QX – SynPlus Fully Synthetic 5W-40 (for petrol & diesel engines). Meets the requirements of API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B3/B4-12, BMW LL-01, VW 502.00, 505.00, MB 229.3, Renault RN700/RN710

In my experience it is more likely to the “weekend DIYers” who get seduced by the marketing and needlessly fork out £50 for 5-litres of “posh oil” which makes absolutely no difference to their old, standard engine.

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stevov
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Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by stevov » Sat 04 Jun, 2016 13:22

As I said "meets the requirements" is not the same as OEM approval. Feel free to buy whatever you want. It's your car. I do this for a living I can't afford to get it wrong.

Wavesong
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  Z3 roadster 2.0

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Wavesong » Sun 05 Jun, 2016 10:58

Oh, I was afraid it might be vanos. I thought though that typically, this affected cold start, loss of low down power, hiccups in exceleration and a constant noise irrespective of engine temperature. However, I guess that this is worst case and mine is the beginnings of Vanos failure? There is a firm up north called Mr Vanos who apparently rebuild these things on a while you wait basis (I would have to book into a B&B), anyone have any experience of this? Replacement or rebuilding is beyond my competence.

bertiejaffa
Joined: Fri 26 Jul, 2013 10:28
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  M roadster S50
Location: Manchester

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by bertiejaffa » Mon 06 Jun, 2016 22:24

Wavesong wrote:Oh, I was afraid it might be vanos. I thought though that typically, this affected cold start, loss of low down power, hiccups in exceleration and a constant noise irrespective of engine temperature. However, I guess that this is worst case and mine is the beginnings of Vanos failure? There is a firm up north called Mr Vanos who apparently rebuild these things on a while you wait basis (I would have to book into a B&B), anyone have any experience of this? Replacement or rebuilding is beyond my competence.

From what I know Mr Vanos comes to you... and does a fine job by all accounts.... for the princely sum of £800+ english pounds. You might want to try sending a PM to these people...

Aceman - he has used him. its his video I uploaded
Pingu - he is (very very bravely) currently rebuilding his Vanos. After chasing him for circa 3000 miles in May I can confirm his didn't "growl" and he certainly had no loss of power, however it did idle like it was about to stall.
Mnbrennan has replaced the seals on the vanos before, not sure what the symptoms were.
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Wavesong
Joined: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 18:46
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  Z3 roadster 2.0

Re: Engine rattle oil pump?

Post by Wavesong » Tue 07 Jun, 2016 11:21

Had a really good rummage around underneath and found a lose heat shield that can't be seen from above or seen by looking under the car with the wheels on the ground but was found by sticking my arm up between the exhaust down pipe and drivers side footwell engine bay side wall. It is very loose and makes the exact noise I have been trying to trace. I am guessing it changes resonance point when hot and so ceases. I can't quite believe its taken me this long (over a year) to get to the bottom of this and I have probably spent £400 replacing innocent culprit parts. To be fair, the car is better for the replacements it just that it wasn't strictly necessary.

Funny how we always look for the complex answer when the culprit was simple. Oh well.

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