Sad news

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 13:49

I bring sad news that this will be the last year not only for me modifying, but also for the Zed.

Ive decided to sell it at the end of the year. I was just going to get rid of the alloys etc, but ive decided that I want a car that I can enjoy driving as well as posing in so will be parting with it at the end of the show season.

Its not an easy decision and ive always wanted a Zed and I do love it to bits, but I really cant control it in wet conditions and I dont particularly relish driving it through another bad winter as to be honest, it does frighten me a bit.

I do have a new car in mind, and am looking into all the spec etc, but ive got a fair few months to make a final decision but will keep you posted.

By the way, if anyone is interested (bearing in mind it wont be til Sep/Oct) in buying it, let me know.

garyw · Post by **garyw** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 14:00

shame..

I'm surprised the car scares you Foxy, I never found myself in any situation that the Zed scared me and I drove it quite hard.
I'm assuming you have some sort of TC on the car ?

Does this mean that this weekend you will have a "For Sale" sticker in it

And what car are you thinking of next ??

garyw

derek · Post by **derek** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 14:20

it is a handfull in the wet and i know what you mean about nursing it through the winter being up here in scotland. i left my car outside overnight couple of weeks back when we had really heavy snow. half way during the night i hear my alarm going haywire again and again. i go outside to literally try and find the car, covered in snow and the weight on the soft top setting the alarm off

good luck with the new car. what have you got your eye on??

BimBeema · Post by **BimBeema** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 14:29

Sorry to hear you wanting to sell your Zed Foxy.

What engine is your Zed? mine's a 2.2 and I've never had any trouble (touch wood) controlling it in rain or otherwise (no snow obviously), but I have driven it fairly hard!

Hope you'll stay with beamer family though!

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 14:43

Its a 1.9

I did hear that the handling was pretty poor on them, but it is pretty bad. Im not an expert driver either, so it does scare me - particularly yesterday coming back from the show on the M6 in the wet!! I honestly thought I wasnt gonna get back in one piece!!

As far as I know - there is no TC on it anywhere. Ive driven a 3 series and had no problems with it, so I know its not a "rear wheel drive" problem. Either TC problem or the fact that its been lowered, but I dont want to raise it back up either.

I have got my eye on a couple of cars... but wont make any decisions til later on in the year when ive had a test drive... IN THE RAIN!!

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 14:45

The problem I have is that I dont want to spend any more money on improving the handling if it genuinely is a problem with my driving or something in the manufacture of it.

Ive got brand new Yokos on there - ive had them on all the cars ive ever owned and never had this problem.

calbens · Post by **calbens** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 15:03

That really is sad news Foxy!
I can't believe your going to get rid of it after all the effort you have gone to in making it look so good!
Have you thought of trying different tyres? I don't know if it's the way I drive (like a wuss, lol) but I haven't had any problems in the wet at all and I do quite a few miles to work and back.

garyw · Post by **garyw** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 15:17

A forum member had complained about the poor handling on their car and after a lakes meet when some of the other members had given it a test drive, it was confirmed to "not be correct".

They replaced the car (with a stunning effect) and enjoyed the Zed for what it should be....

I do think that maybe the changes that you have made to the car (wheel size and suspension) may not of helped in the handling situation, but as I replied earlier, never has the Zed left me that scared, not even in the rain

At Gaydon next weekend, get someone to take your car for a spin around the carpark(with you in it) and I'm sure they will advise you if there is something amiss with it, maybe you will get the chance to take another Zed for a spin to confirm that they are OK..

garyw

BiggusLaddus · Post by **BiggusLaddus** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 15:24

Tyres will have a huge impact on the handling of the car in the wet, some of them are no use at all (never used Yoko's myself, so can't comment on them in particular).

Having a run out in someone else's car and/or getting someone to have a drive in yours would be a good idea, as it might be obvious straight away if they handle completely differently.

They are quite a few things that could have gone in the rear suspension that would make the handling a bit wild, and this would obviously show up more in the wet where there is less grip.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 15:30

Id be quite happy for someone else to give me an opinion... be aware that it is an auto - so unless someone else has one, i wont be able to try someone elses.

Alfie · Post by **Alfie** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 15:48

Boysie wrote:The nut behind the wheel makes my car handle bad in the wet

A.

Boysie · Post by **Boysie** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 15:52

Hi foxy

It must be the car setup
The nut behind the wheel
makes my car handle bad in the wet
i think you will have difficultly finding
something as nice as your Z

I can see a petition to stop foxy leaving and selling the Z

ray

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 16:22

Stability isn't a Z3 strong point but having it very low with big wheels won't help since you'll have very little suspension travel, excess negative camber at both front and rear which will mean you'll have less traction and braking grip, the front end will wander and tramline (even more) and probably make it more prone to oversteer at high speed making it feel nervous.

///M_aniac · Post by **///M_aniac** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 17:51

Sorry to hear this news, Foxy.

After all time and money you have put into it, it is a shame. Please let some of the other guys drive it when you meet up..Maybe there is something amiss that they will spot and direct you to getting resolved.

I do agree with what c_w says above. This will certainly impact upon the Zed's handling.

ChrisXL · Post by **ChrisXL** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 19:20

Really sorry to hear that Foxy

, it must be as c_w says, the Z is very sensitive to changes in the suspension and larger wheels.

Hope someone knocks some sense in you the coming months... selling the Z!!!!
You just cheered everything up here with all your mods and I have laughed my head off the past year when you constantly shocked the traditionally conservative BMW crowd

Mr Tim · Post by **Mr Tim** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 20:20

hello is a front strut fitted to your car Foxy ?????? as i use to feel the same but now i only get nervous over 120 MPH

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 20:50

Mr Tim - no I havent got a strut brace - I was considering getting one, but Ive heard that most insurance companies dont wanna know - and the last thing I need is yet another higher insurance bracket, but I guess for handling purposes it might be worth considering.

The problem I have is I really dont want to change the look of my car now by raising it back up and putting smaller wheels on.. I know its sad, but if that is the reason why I struggle with it, then I would rather get rid and find a car I can modify and enjoy.

Ive had a lot of cars in the past and have slammed them to the floor and had bigger alloys, never had a handling problem.. so it must be something to do with lack of traction control.

Will be happier when the drier weather comes and I can enjoy the Zed over the summer - and then let someone else enjoy slippy winters!

TonyCal · Post by **TonyCal** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 20:55

The 1.9 should have TC or ASC.
An Auto should make no difference either.
It could be the tyres or the suspension mods you have done Foxy. My old 1.9 was lowered 30mm and while it did improve the handling to some degree, it did make the rear end prone to just snapping away with no notice when pushed especially in the wet, was a lot better with the 17 inch rims and Goodyears f1's though. The michelins I had on the 16" rims were rubbish in any road conditions.

You can enjoy driving the Z in any conditions, and it is an excellent posing car too.

Marvellous · Post by **Marvellous** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 21:22

Sad to hear you are selling (though not quite yet), I have enjoyed your banter on here ...... whatever you do, keep us posted!!

Mick

muppet · Post by **muppet** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 21:34

foxy just looked at your zed on the show off sight, it does look fantastic. I am sure what ever you get next it will be just as shiney in no time at all

ChrisXL · Post by **ChrisXL** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 21:56

You might want to give a strut bar and some good rubber a chance

Mr Tim · Post by **Mr Tim** » Mon 27 Mar, 2006 23:27

HELLO YES
MY INSURANCE WAS NOT AFFECTED BY FITTING A STRUT BUT WOW!!!! WHAT A DIFFERENCE AND MINE HAS BEEN LOWERED AS WELL I WAS GETTING UP TO SAY 80MPH AND NOT LIKING IT. BUT NOW SHE IS OK 80/90+ NO WORRIES OK YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT A BIT EASY IN THE RAIN
MOTOR INSURANCE SCHEDULE
CAR DETAILS
MODIFICATION;EG TO ENGINE,BODY,WHEELS, SUSPENSION SUSPENSION --SELF LEVELLING

tags · Post by **tags** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 06:25

My 1.9 Auto caught me out a few times on roundabouts too. I have never had the same trouble in the ///M though. Both cars without TC as well.

Tags

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 15:36

I would rate the Zed as being one of the most stable cars I've ever driven, and always wondered why many contributors to this Forum claim it to be 'tail happy' - maybe it's having driven Austin Healey Sprites etc in my distant youth!

I used Yokohama A539 tyres on my 150 bhp Golf GTI, which was was completely stable and forgiving around the Curborough sprint circuit - even with me driving - so I would discount these as being the problem.

I bet Foxy's problem is mainly caused by her car having been drastically lowered, as the old 1981-vintage E30 semi-trailing arm rear suspension suffers from quite a bit of camber change as it approaches the extremes of suspension travel.

This is the problem - when lowered more than about 30 mm, the camber angles experienced by the rear wheels can provoke quite a bit of instability. This problem was common on early Zeds, due (shades of the Z4!) to poor quality spring material which resulted in shortened or broken springs, causing very sudden rear breakaway.

Even at 40 mm things seem to be OK if the springs and dampers are well matched, and of decent quality. In the worst case, fitting shorter - lower - springs to standard dampers is usually a disaster, as the springs are often stronger, and require firmer damping than is offered by the originals. This generally produces an unpleasant 'floating on air' feeling when pressing on a little. Our Golf TDI suffered from this problem when new, having VW 'Sports' suspension, which was simply lowered springs on the original (soft) dampers. A Powerful FWD car with oversteer problems is NOT fun! Needless to say, a set of Koni dampers with matching Eibach springs cured things.

Daughter's 318Ti Compact uses the same suspension as a Zed, and is fitted with a Bilstein Sprintline spring and damper kit, lowering it by about 40 mm, yet it remains predictable and stable, even in extremes - she drives very well!

Any loss of adhesion caused by unmatched springs/dampers or excessive lowering will be accentuated by fitting wider tyres, particularly if they are really too wide for the rim width, as the camber angle change will make the tyres run on their edges, with a greater degree of instability than would be produced by normal tyres. For example, most after-market wheels have rim widths of around 7 inches, yet lots of owners fit them for cosmetic reasons, then - for the same reason - fit massive tyres, and then glibly excuse the result by claiming that any RWD car is tail happy!

So - if I were Foxy - I would first try to drive another Z3 in the rain as a comparison, and look very hard at the spring/damper mix first. Even a new set of springs and dampers would be a lot cheaper than buying another car.

trickyb · Post by **trickyb** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 16:48

As with all the other comments here, Foxy, it'll be sad not to see the latest bling-update-accessory ordered within a week of someone sugegsting it!!

I saw the other week you were asking about new wheels, but we all thought you meant for the Z, not NEW wheels

I have the W plate 2.0 model and, whilst the back end is obviously light, i actually enjoy the feeling of driving sideways on snow/ice. The challenge it knowing how to stop the slide and bring the back end in. I have had some advanced driver training (for my job) which helps in thsis, but the best experience is to get onto a skid-pad with a professional. That 1hr alone gave me much more confidence (10yrs ago), and so far, so good in the poor weather.

They always say the weather conditions arn't to blame, it's the driver and speed/gear selection for the conditions which makes a car unstable.

My wife has a 120d Sport and, i have to say, that car is FAR more twitchy in all weathers. I can really attack corners in the Z, but find the 1 much less confidence inducing. Great on the motorway, though.

Good luck, Foxy, in your new car and maybe see you back here in a couple of years.

Big Red · Post by **Big Red** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 20:13

I would suggest trying your old wheels and tyres back on the car first before you decide to sell.
As already stated, lowering the car to much will knock out the camber, but over sized wheels and tyres will also make a huge difference on the cars behaviour.

I see cars for mot every day with large wide wheels fitted to them, and just have to take them for a run around the block.

Almost all of them handle like you are driving a trolley jack

The over sized wheels mean you have to go for lower profile on tyres.
This gives less flex on tyre sidewalls, therefore less body roll before it breaks loose.
If sitting on correct profile, you would get a bit of warning you were reaching the limits of the tyre before it began to break loose and slide.

It amazes me why people stick 2 to 3 sizes bigger wheels on there cars to improve handling and looks.

Car manufacturers will have done all there sums before they came up with the size, offset and width they fit.
Another consideration is the smaller profile you fit, the harsher the ride will be as there is less rubber to cushion the holes and bumps in the roads.

Try your old wheels first, if things improve, then look for a nice set to replace them with of the correct size though.
Will be cheaper than replacing the car for something you may not like.

My z is 2.8, sitting on standard spoke alloys and standard michelin tyres.
I would not say it was tail happy at all, compared to the other bm's I have owned.

My 5 series is crazy with just a fine misting on rain on the road, and my 325 i had was even worse.

The z behaves very well, and have only had the tail end break loose once, and that was my own fault being far to ambitious pulling on to a main road and dumping the clutch and hard on the loud pedal changing into second

Noise from rear wheels was nice though

Gordon

Chromeline Design · Post by **Chromeline Design** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 21:12

From Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

Tim, always give uncle Ben a ring!!

Chromeline Design · Post by **Chromeline Design** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 21:13

See,

I even answered you before u asked the question

Mr Tim · Post by **Mr Tim** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 21:16

mike
were is the best place to get the Bilstein Sprintline spring and damper kit

thanks Mr Tim

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 21:19

My wheels arent that big, they are only 17s!

Anyway, ive solved the problem short term - ive just bought another car to drive when its raining... bit like a large umbrella really! ha

So my Zed will be used when dry or to shows, or to pose in and my new little runaround will be used in the rain and snow... yes its silly insuring two cars, but its the only solution i have come up with - and its cheaper than buying a new set of wheels!!

JAY · Post by **JAY** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 21:51

foxy wrote:My wheels arent that big, they are only 17s!

Anyway, ive solved the problem short term - ive just bought another car to drive when its raining... bit like a large umbrella really! ha

So my Zed will be used when dry or to shows, or to pose in and my new little runaround will be used in the rain and snow... yes its silly insuring two cars, but its the only solution i have come up with - and its cheaper than buying a new set of wheels!!

Sounds like a good compromise to me.

Glad to hear your keeping the Zed

Mr Tim · Post by **Mr Tim** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 21:56

mike what hight would you reccomend to set them at

BimBeema · Post by **BimBeema** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 21:57

I would say that's the most sensible solution. Alot of people use the Zed as a weekend/summer car and have arun around car for othertimes.

Glad to hear you're not selling then!

Mr Tim · Post by **Mr Tim** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 22:05

Ben
as you know my car is lowered now as you know the handling is poor so we fit a font strut and i wish to get the best out of my baby so hello Ben i was thinking of putting a Bilstein Sprintline spring and damper kit but i dont know if i can put the hight back to factory hights or adjustable up and down hey i could test the theory then so how much uncle`s best price pleaseeeeeeee for Bilstein Sprintline spring and damper kit then i have to get it fitted

thanks uncle

Alfie · Post by **Alfie** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 22:51

BimBeema wrote:Alot of people use the Zed as a weekend/summer car and have arun around car for othertimes.

True, but not because the Zed handles badly!

A.

Boysie · Post by **Boysie** » Tue 28 Mar, 2006 23:10

No just being lazy
And cant be bothered to get it out of the garage
and the wife cars is nearer

And its a smart car

ray

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 05:20

I havent said Im not selling it... that is still a possible maybe at the end of the year. I dont really want to have to run two cars..

Dav · Post by **Dav** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 07:28

foxy wrote:I havent said Im not selling it... that is still a possible maybe at the end of the year. I dont really want to have to run two cars..

And you have't told us what your new run around is yet. Come on don't be shy, mine is a ka!

Dave L

BimBeema · Post by **BimBeema** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 08:15

foxy wrote:I havent said Im not selling it... that is still a possible maybe at the end of the year. I dont really want to have to run two cars..

Fair enough!

BimBeema · Post by **BimBeema** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 08:16

Alfie wrote:
BimBeema wrote:Alot of people use the Zed as a weekend/summer car and have arun around car for othertimes.
True, but not because the Zed handles badly!

A.

I didn't say that!

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 09:46

My runaround?

Its a lovely little Renault Clio RT

Im gonna try really really hard not to modify it....

ChrisXL · Post by **ChrisXL** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 10:04

A Clio!!!

That will be some serious modding then to make it look even half decent

Nah just kidding, IMHO just stick to the Z and improve the handling, you'll be sorry if you don't.

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 11:46

Mr Tim wrote:Ben
as you know my car is lowered now as you know the handling is poor so we fit a font strut and i wish to get the best out of my baby so hello Ben i was thinking of putting a Bilstein Sprintline spring and damper kit but i dont know if i can put the hight back to factory hights or adjustable up and down hey i could test the theory then so how much uncle`s best price pleaseeeeeeee for Bilstein Sprintline spring and damper kit then i have to get it fitted

thanks uncle

The Sprintline kit comes with Bilstein Sprint dampers and VENTURA springs which aren't made by Bilstein and are the weak link in the kit IMO. I'vecome to the conclusion they are too soft for hard driving but ok for keeping ride quality and driving fast on smooth roads. It's not height adjustable but you could use your original springs if you wanted on the Bilstein dampers.

///M_aniac · Post by **///M_aniac** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 13:24

Glad to hear you have acquired a temporary car to keep the Zed out of the rain and slippery conditions. I'd defo let other members drive it before you sell it though. Don't sell it on impulse. It would be terrible to regret parting with it.

ChrisXL · Post by **ChrisXL** » Wed 29 Mar, 2006 14:36

erm............ I have a Eibach Pro System, front & rear shocks with springs ......... doesn't fit the ///M so has to go

Decent firm ride, abel to lower the car 20mm, IMHO better than OEM

dasherdiablo1 · Post by **dasherdiablo1** » Thu 30 Mar, 2006 10:44

I can't believe this post!
A 1.9 AUTO that is making it's driver nervous at the wheel. This is just plain ridiculous....a seriously underpowered car in auto format should have no stability issues...( can't compare it to both my MC's cos they are completely different) however I can compare it to the 2.8 I had which was perfectly balanced and could be driven at the limit so easily in standard set up.
I feel there must be something seriously wrong with your suspension set up. You need to check your rear top shock mounts because these make a collossal difference to the handling if they are knackered. The lowered suspension you have may well be the route of your problem, and forget the way it looks. The only point in changing suspension should be to improve handling, and if looks are improved also that is merely a bonus.
Give it to a professional and let them sort it out; anyone worth their salt will be able to identify the issue with a simple road test.
Sorry if this sounds a little harsh but get it sorted before it's too late.

Boysie · Post by **Boysie** » Thu 30 Mar, 2006 11:38

Foxy

Just a thought foxy
When you go to sell the car
Will a clever buyer notice these problems
I know for one thing, nobody on this site would buy it
without mechanical experience

ray

foxy · Post by **foxy** » Thu 30 Mar, 2006 20:18

Boysie wrote:Foxy

Just a thought foxy
When you go to sell the car
Will a clever buyer notice these problems
I know for one thing, nobody on this site would buy it
without mechanical experience

ray

The car will be put back to totally standard - I have kept all the original parts. The problem is because it is lowered, simple as. Im not prepared to raise it up just because of a bit of rain. I will enjoy the car throughout the summer and make a decision in October.

kruisn · Post by **kruisn** » Thu 30 Mar, 2006 20:24

BimBeema wrote:I would say that's the most sensible solution. Alot of people use the Zed as a weekend/summer car and have arun around car for othertimes.

Glad to hear you're not selling then!

I agree with BimBeema Foxy. It is the best solution, I have always had my Z and Healeys etc as weekend cars,with just a cheap crap car for every day use. Saves mileage on your "hobby"car, helps to keep car park dings to a minimum, allows the car to be worked on at liesure, keeps it cleaner, dont have to worry so much about vandles or takers and you tend to appreciate it more when you drive it just for fun!!!!!!!
Keep the Z and ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dasherdiablo1 · Post by **dasherdiablo1** » Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:31

Foxy Quote 'The car will be put back to totally standard - I have kept all the original parts. The problem is because it is lowered, simple as. Im not prepared to raise it up just because of a bit of rain. I will enjoy the car throughout the summer and make a decision in October.'

OK sorry to say this but Girl get out of the car, sell it, and buy a bus ticket. You obviously do not have the mentality to be driving. I cannot believe anyone would knowingly put their own safety and the safety of others at risk just to have their car look marginally better.

Your car is unstable and you could have an accident (possible at high speed on the motorway) and hit a car with a family in it and kill them all.

Well let me tell you something; If you need a reference in court should it happen I will be only too happy to stand up and put forward the content of this forum topic that you did knowingly and wittingly drive a vehicle that was unsafe to do so.

It is irresponsible persons like yourself that give true car enthusiasts a bad name. I am shocked by your childish and reckless attitude.

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