Z3M V8 Conversion

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Deano1712
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  M roadster S50
Location: Leeds

Post by Deano1712 » Sun 27 Feb, 2011 12:02

johnjo wrote:Out of interest who did you use for the insurance with all the mods and dare I ask the cost :oops:
I'm now using Adrian Flux and its a bit steep - £950 - with 9yrs NCB. There are not many options to choose from with mods like this declared.
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

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whiteminks
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Location: Lincoln

Post by whiteminks » Sun 27 Feb, 2011 21:37

big cheesy wrote:'I nearly cacked my trolleys till I quickly tuned in'. Yorkshire Cruise 2008.

JohnSmith
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Post by JohnSmith » Tue 01 Mar, 2011 15:37

Cracking project. Would love to come across and see it when it's completed.

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c_w
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  M roadster S50

Post by c_w » Tue 01 Mar, 2011 16:17

Deano1712 wrote:I'm hoping to make it on the 13th March at Waterton Park, but need to get the engine running right first.
When's the suspension getting sorted and big wheels put on? Or are you going to "run it in" first to iron out the niggles before changing anything else?

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Deano1712
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Location: Leeds

Post by Deano1712 » Tue 01 Mar, 2011 17:24

c_w wrote:
Deano1712 wrote:I'm hoping to make it on the 13th March at Waterton Park, but need to get the engine running right first.
When's the suspension getting sorted and big wheels put on? Or are you going to "run it in" first to iron out the niggles before changing anything else?
First I have one to two months of tuning which involves driving and logging data and adjusting fuelling, MAF and power enrichment tables. This is an iterative process and I have a lot of learning to do and the car aint going out in the rain either - sloooowww job. First I have to get a wideband fitted (hopefully this weekend). Getting the engine running right is the priority for now. I was dumb to think the standard GM tune for this engine was going to be near right (apparently). I have some honeycomb ducting on order for the inlet duct to sort the crappy LS3/7 cartridge MAF, which is just reading unstable now. Some guys on Ls1tech and HPT forum are helping me and I have a 'good' tune from one guy for the LS376/480 which I will try. If this gives reasonable AFR I will be ok to come along to the Wakey meet next week, otherwise not :|

Wheels, tyre and brakes will be fitted when ready and I'm waiting for a delivery of 135i calipers from the States - smelling a rat on that transaction unfortunatley. I hope it will come together for the Newby meet. Suspension? Dunno. Its driving well for now. Im not spending a grand to shake my fillings out. I think the money is better spent on good tyres, so the car is getting Yoko Neova's. Im making a triangulated brace soon. I have said previously I have longer term plans for 'alternative' suspension.
Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 01 Mar, 2011 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

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markrnorton
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Location: Essex

Post by markrnorton » Tue 01 Mar, 2011 17:26

looking good Mark, looking good
Still modifying

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Sat 05 Mar, 2011 18:36

I had a fun day today on the car starting out on the engine tuning. I bought a Innovate LC-1 wideband O2 sensor and have that fitted now. I had to take the exhaust off and weld in a third bung and I have the wiring for it installed temporarily. I will take the WB out after the car is tuned, so it will stay as-new for when/if I use it again. The analogue outlet from the LC-1 is routed inside the car so I can hook it into HP Tuners and log the AFR alongside all the other engine parameters on the laptop.

I created a modified tune as a startung point adjusting the idle a bit and lowering the fan on temp to 95degrees, from 99, and setting the rev counter outlet correct. I was hoping it would drive well but the standard GM tune is a mile off. The long term fuel trims (which add/subtract fuelling to get Lambda=1) were showing -10% showing how far the tune is off! WOT afr was looking high too so no fun to be had at all - danger of damaging the engine.

I have been learning how to use the HPT software and the approach to take to measure and set up all the parameters. Its complicated but doable and there is lots of help on HPT Forum. One guy in the States has a LS376/480 engine (in a Westfield type kit car!!) and he has been through the pain of setting it up. I have a copy of his tune and assume that its a good one since his car has run in the 9's to 1/4 mile (at 140mph lol). I gave that a try today as well and the car runs a lot better. The LTFT's are neutral and it looks better at WOT (but not perfect). I think I will be using his tune as a starting point from now on.

The cooling fan came on as demanded at 95 degrees so that was a mini-success as well. I ended up putting settings back up to stock temps though since the car runs 90-95 degrees mobile on the stat and the fan live range 97-99 is what it needs. One minor issue is that since the coolant runs hotter in the LS3 the dash gauge is reading slightly hot all the time. The engine oil is also running at 105degrees which seems hot but its never going to be cooler than coolant. There is no oil cooler fitted as standard on the LS3.

Anyway overall I'm happy. Its running Ok and sounds great. I'm getting more confident driving it, and that its not going to fall apart lol! I get looks from ALL pedestrians!! No leaks, and just one rattle that sounds like it may be a clash around the gear linkage housing. Happy days :)
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

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unclemart
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Post by unclemart » Sat 05 Mar, 2011 20:44

Awsome project Mark great write up the sort of stuff us mere mortals dream about thanks for sharing :bow :bow

You also get my vote for best quote :D :cheers
Deano1712 wrote: Nought to 500hp in 2 inches lol.
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c_w
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Post by c_w » Sat 05 Mar, 2011 22:26

Deano1712 wrote: The cooling fan came on as demanded at 95 degrees so that was a mini-success as well. I ended up putting settings back up to stock temps though since the car runs 90-95 degrees mobile on the stat and the fan live range 97-99 is what it needs. One minor issue is that since the coolant runs hotter in the LS3 the dash gauge is reading slightly hot all the time. The engine oil is also running at 105degrees which seems hot but its never going to be cooler than coolant. There is no oil cooler fitted as standard on the LS3.
Did you retain the Z3M oil cooler? I think a cooler is worthwhile. I find generally oil runs alongside water temp, around 90degrees unless the car's pushed harder, where coolant tends to stay the same for longer as the cooling capacity is better than oil cooling circuits.

For the temp gauge could you not experiment with some kind of resistor to alter the value of the signal/sender to drop the reading down a bit?

alanandjudi
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Post by alanandjudi » Wed 16 Mar, 2011 16:37

Looks like your nearly there Mark, has been great keeping up with this through the winter months, even though I only understand about 50% of it.
Look forward to seeing it in the flesh at Newby. :P

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fok
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Post by fok » Thu 24 Mar, 2011 17:59

Looks like a very nice conversion....Hats off to you, particularly for mapping it yourself.

I'm not doubting your abilities but be aware that Snatch on here with the other LS3 roadster melted an engine on a top speed run when he thought his was mapped ok.....Mind you he's now done a 7.1 stroker kit with the new rebuild!

I'm running LS1 with heads, intake and cam in a Z3M Coupe:

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V8 Z's!!!!! :thumb:

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Post by JohnSmith » Fri 25 Mar, 2011 14:56

That is nice Fok, bet it's a beast.

snatch
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Location: alcester

Post by snatch » Fri 25 Mar, 2011 18:33

I've seen this car and it is a class act.... very trick... v8 is the way ahead :D

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aceman
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Location: Wakefield

Post by aceman » Fri 25 Mar, 2011 19:13

snatch wrote:v8 is the way ahead :D
I'll second that :thumb:
Aceman

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Thu 31 Mar, 2011 20:49

c_w wrote:Did you retain the Z3M oil cooler? I think a cooler is worthwhile. I find generally oil runs alongside water temp, around 90degrees unless the car's pushed harder, where coolant tends to stay the same for longer as the cooling capacity is better than oil cooling circuits.

For the temp gauge could you not experiment with some kind of resistor to alter the value of the signal/sender to drop the reading down a bit?
The temperatures I'm seeing are normal apparently the engine is designed to run hot to keep emissions down and to keep oil free from condensation. The oil is not quite as hot now I have put a few miles on it. Its probably freeing up a bit. I may end up putting a lower temperature thermostat in it but thats for a different problem. I'm getting some knock retard which is robbing me a bit of power at WOT. It may be whats called false knock where the engine thinks is knocking but its actually vibration. I do have a foul on the shifter so that may be causing the problem. I also have a manifold pipe running very close to the o/s knock sensor so that could be setting it off. Im going to do some tests at the weekend to see whats causing it. Curing it should be easy and if necessary I can turn down the sensitivity of the sensors.

I put some honeycomb material upstream and downstream of the MAF and that seems to have made it respond to throttle blips a lot better. Doing this has thrown the tune off a bit so I have to re-tune the MAF tables again.
Image
IMG_0621 by deansie1712, on Flickr

Engine inlet temperatures have been too high and I now have that sorted by creating a sealed compartment between the air filter and the rest of the engine bay. The engine is now pulling in ambient temperature even at idle. Job sorted.
Image
IMG_0637 by deansie1712, on Flickr

I have figured out how I'm upgrading the brakes and will post more when I start that job. I have some Brembo 6 and 2 pot 135i calipers and will use 345mm front discs and 320mm rear discs. I trial fitted the rear caliper and it fits great with no adapter needed. The disc shown there is standard MR rear 312mm diameter. 135i rears are 324mm but they dont fit on the Z3 due to offset. The nearest disc I can find is off an E46 330d.
Image
IMG_0622 by deansie1712, on Flickr
Last edited by Deano1712 on Sat 10 Mar, 2012 11:26, edited 1 time in total.
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offyourmarks
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Post by offyourmarks » Fri 01 Apr, 2011 10:14

Phenominal read. Well done - absolutely first class :)

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Post by sandy430 » Sun 03 Apr, 2011 22:05

Well done indeed. A friend has spent ages trying to do similar in a TVR. It is amazing the niggly little things that can cause trouble. I like the CAD approach too, that can really help sort out the basics.

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Post by maurice the martian » Mon 04 Apr, 2011 10:58

Awsome beast Mark, and well done,been reading this thread for a while and i`m well impressed with all your skills and knowledge :bow cant wait to see and hear it on the road.
Cheers Maurice

Mroadster.au
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  M roadster S50
Location: Melbourne

Post by Mroadster.au » Wed 13 Apr, 2011 12:38

Damn Mark, I wish I was in London, seeing I'm in Melbourne I'll never see it in the flesh :(

Awesome job . . . Mike

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Tue 26 Apr, 2011 19:39

Update time, its been a while.

The engine tune is coming on quite good, but slowly. Mostly that is down to me learning how to use the software. The engine seems to be running pretty good now. I have a small section of the map I cant dial in right but apart from that AFR is good at cruise and WOT. I ended up desensitising the knock sensors by 50% which has stopped knock retard coming on when it shouldnt. I think the sensors are picking up random noise from the install (perhaps manifolds). I have been running on 100+ octane fuel to make sure its not genuine knock, which im sure it isnt.

Whenever I make a list of outstanding jobs it never seems to get any shorter. Anyway a final push is on now to get it finihsed for Newby. Lots to do though still.

I have given the brake upgrade a lot of thought. Calipers are from a 135i and discs are Z4M 345mm up front and E60 320mm rears. The fronts are now fitted but with spacers to get the caliper positioned right. Im going to get some steel carriers made to suit. The rear calipers bolts on direct but I can't get the rear discs on yet since they need a small machining op to clear part of the back shield. I will be changing the master cylinder since the front calipers have quite small pistons and give less brake effort even with bigger discs. The non-M Z3 master is sized about right to sort that little snag out.

Image
IMG_0654

I think these big discs and 6-pot Brembos will do the job :D

Image
IMG_0656 by deansie1712, on Flickr

Wheels are on now too - what do you think? Any volunteers to help me clean them??
Image
DSC02483 by deansie1712, on Flickr

If anyone wants a set of carriers making up let me know. It will be cheaper to get a batch made up, than the one set I need. I think the front setup will be a match for any of the aftermarket BBK's.
Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 26 Apr, 2011 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

rgf
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Post by rgf » Tue 26 Apr, 2011 19:45

Deano1712 wrote: I ended up desensitising the knock sensors by 50% which has stopped knock retard coming on when it shouldnt. .
Yeh that's just what I would have done Mark :shrug
I am in awe.
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skeete
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Post by skeete » Wed 27 Apr, 2011 02:03

Holy cow batman! Those rear wheels have more dish in them than Jodrell Bank !

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Post by shantybeater » Wed 27 Apr, 2011 07:55

Looking good, I assume you are changing the suspension though?
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Ian Kelly
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Post by Ian Kelly » Wed 27 Apr, 2011 08:27

Good to see it nearing completion!

I agree, the rear looks a bit high, although it could be the angle of the photo. Rear alloys look good, less keen on the fronts, they look a bit under-dished (compared to the rears!!), but again, could be the angle.

Are you still up for selling the front left standard caliper?

Cheers,

Ian

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Wed 27 Apr, 2011 10:57

As above,suspension ride height needs sorting and the front does look a bit negative d ished? unless it's the angle of the photo?

Coming on well! Have you tried the brakes with the standard master cylinder? It may well just give you a nice firm pedal feel?

131
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Post by 131 » Fri 29 Apr, 2011 20:41

The calipers look really cool and they propably do the work. How about the master cylinder sizing? Is the original size ok for those? And, where did you get those calipers, how much you had to pay for them?

Marko

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Fri 29 Apr, 2011 22:17

131 wrote:The calipers look really cool and they propably do the work. How about the master cylinder sizing? Is the original size ok for those? And, where did you get those calipers, how much you had to pay for them?

Marko
Hi Marko I got the calipers front + rears for 750USD second hand via ebay. The fronts measure around 54mm effective diameter. Standard is 60mm so it needs the master cylinder changing. The non-M master cylinder has a smaller piston on the front giving around +14% pressure increase so it works well. The rear caliper is 42mm dia so this gives a little more rear brake than standard (40mm). Thats what I wanted with the conversion shifting overall CofG back a bit.

Correction to above - 135i front calipers are 28/32/36mm so effective diameter is 55.7mm.
Last edited by Deano1712 on Fri 10 Feb, 2012 18:33, edited 2 times in total.
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Fri 29 Apr, 2011 22:39

shantybeater wrote:Looking good, I assume you are changing the suspension though?
What do you suggest I do? Do you know what the main weaknesses in the Z3 suspension are and the best remedy?

I will have to drop the ride height a bit for purely cosmetic reasons, but will minimise that since it adversly affects the roll centre. As I have said earlier in this post I have long term plans for the suspension. What/when I do this is unclear now. All the aftermarket suspension kits I have studied look like a half-fix IMHO except for one in the US but I cant justify that at £3k. The car handles well as I have it setup now.
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shantybeater
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Post by shantybeater » Fri 29 Apr, 2011 23:35

I've been looking into suspension recently, you probably know more than I do though since i'm not that mechnically minded/experienced! Will cover it just incase:

Not entirely sure where the weakness lies but there appears to be two main options, each with pretty much one popular tried and tested choice:

1. A decent set of shocks and springs - Bilstein B8's for lowered or B6 for standard height, if you go for B8's couple together with Intrax/H&R Springs. B8's are essentially AC Schnitzer Road suspension) - this might not be an option for you since i'm guessing there is now a weight difference with the new engine? so you may get uneven ride height front to back?

2. A Decent coilover setup - over here it appears KW V3's with height & adjustable dampening is the most popular choice especially by the coupe guys, you should be able to get this for around 1k

The sheer amount of people that use these two setups and give good reviews is enough to stick to one or the other in my book.

and dont forget Rogue Engineering shock mounts for the rear.

Whats the US option? TCKline?
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Sat 30 Apr, 2011 09:27

Thanks for that James. I'm a bit torn on what to do really. The KW V3 looks worth a try. I cant see it anywhere for £1k though - £1.3 looks more like it. Im getting a bit tired of spending money on the car to be honest. The work to date has cost nearly £16k. All good fun but its been a money pit. I suppose the old Z3m wheels will net me some cash and the S54 suspension on the car now must be worth a bit (its only done <2000 miles from new).
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shantybeater
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Post by shantybeater » Sat 30 Apr, 2011 10:47

Sorry it is closer to the 1.3k mark for KW's

Don't give up! you've got so far (and spent so much!) it would be a shame to cut corners or fall short at this stage. You will have one hell of a car when its done! 8-)
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Progress Thread:http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=36117
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c_w
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Post by c_w » Wed 04 May, 2011 14:49

Yea as above you need to sort the suspension out the standard stuff doesn't really cope at the best of times, plus just aesthetically it looks too high.

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Wed 04 May, 2011 17:25

Yes I have ordered KW variant 3 suspension. Should be here in a few days. Also ordered all remaining bits for the brake upgrade. Carriers are £60 all in out of aluminium so happy with that. I should be all done with the conversion in a couple of weeks :D
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shantybeater
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Post by shantybeater » Wed 04 May, 2011 17:28

Good choice :)
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Progress Thread:http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=36117
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Mon 09 May, 2011 14:47

I got the rear brakes complete now...discs are 320mm from the E60 and the 135i calipers fit well. I changed the handbrake shoes to the slightly larger diameter from the E60 (and E46). The standard brake hose fits fine.

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Untitled by deansie1712, on Flickr
Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 10 May, 2011 12:59, edited 1 time in total.
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billz
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Post by billz » Mon 09 May, 2011 17:16

Mark, Have you got the mapping sorted :?:
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Mon 09 May, 2011 17:48

billz wrote:Mark, Have you got the mapping sorted :?:
bill
Nearly...I put a small mod in yesterday buy can't try it yet. Car is off road till brakes are complete. Need to get a new battery as well since the old one won't hold charge. :head:
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offyourmarks
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Post by offyourmarks » Mon 09 May, 2011 20:59

How much different does it feel to drive it terms of accelerative sensation? Is it massively quicker?

How does front end weight compare with the OE?

Have you weighed the car since complete and do you have any idea of the weight distribution F/R?

Just interested.

Car looks fantastic so far — did you get the paintwork done in the end?

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Mon 09 May, 2011 22:14

offyourmarks wrote:How much different does it feel to drive it terms of accelerative sensation? Is it massively quicker?
It is a lot quicker but don't think I have seen all the performance yet. It's still being run-in so not taken it past 4k much and had quite a problem with KR taking out maybe 50 to 100hp. That's fixed now so next week I will try a bit harder. Torque is a lot more and really notice the bonnet picks up in the air when I hoof it. Also notice the fuel gauge moves faster lol. Dunno yet about the weight, i will put it on a weighbridge soon. As for paint I have been working diy on the bambi-rash and my skills have run out there. The bonnet is painted and the (rock hard) clear coat needs a full flat sand. Rotary polishing machine arrives tomorrow! I'm obsessive about doing all work myself and it not always the best way, but that's me.
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offyourmarks
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Post by offyourmarks » Tue 10 May, 2011 05:25

Cool

If you want to call in for a primer on rotary polishing let me know. Wet sanding and rotary polishing can quickly ruin paint. Dont mind spending a saturday morning with you to :)

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Post by franky » Wed 11 May, 2011 14:17

Good to see you're making progress.

Can you see what use to be in your car? :D

Image




Thanks again for the EWS bits, runs a treat now.

Awesome project you've done there.

Jason

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Post by Hard Top » Wed 11 May, 2011 14:23

^^^^^^^^^^^^

WOW.. :shock:
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 » Wed 11 May, 2011 14:59

Nice one Jason. Car looks great. Glad you got it running ok. I bet my old S50 engine is now going quicker than my LS3 is!!
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Post by Ian Kelly » Wed 11 May, 2011 15:12

franky wrote:Good to see you're making progress.

Can you see what use to be in your car? :D

Jason
Hi,

I've watched your build on the GKD site, I visited Peter (GKD) last September as I was pretty keen on building another car (built an R1 Fury in 2006/7), but after looking at my diary (and bank balance!) decided to buy a Z3M and just refresh it over winter. Be really interested to have a look over your car if that's possible, where are you in the country?? Looks very neat with the engine tucked up in the chassis like that.

Cheers, Ian

franky
Joined: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 20:03
Posts: 7

  M roadster S50

Post by franky » Wed 11 May, 2011 19:42

Deano1712 wrote:Nice one Jason. Car looks great. Glad you got it running ok. I bet my old S50 engine is now going quicker than my LS3 is!!
It runs fine when moving, sometimes doesn't like to idle though. It may just be because I reset the adaptation values.

I forgot to ask if you've had it re-mapped at all as it seems to rev to 8k.

It'll never sound as good as your ls3.

You conversion costs, is that including the car cost or is it just the engine transplant costs?

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stu
Site Admin
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2003 18:49
Posts: 3540

  Z3 roadster 2.8 supe
Location: On the edge!

Post by stu » Sun 15 May, 2011 10:08

Mark, you're a legend. Keep up the good work.

Can't wait to see it & hear it.

Need to catch up for a coffee & run out sometime?

Loving the new home for the S50 too. Bonkers is obviously back in fashion :D
someone in a minority once wrote:I know I'm in a minority
Image

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Deano1712
Z Register organiser
Joined: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 13:56
Posts: 1394

  M roadster S50
Location: Leeds

Post by Deano1712 » Sun 15 May, 2011 17:25

franky wrote:I forgot to ask if you've had it re-mapped at all as it seems to rev to 8k.
You conversion costs, is that including the car cost or is it just the engine transplant costs?
I didnt had it remapped but I dont remember every noticing a rev limiter on it either. Odd. As for costs that figure is for the work over the last year. The engine swap part of it cost £10k-£11k.
stu wrote:Need to catch up for a coffee & run out sometime?
Sure that will be good Stu - car is nearly finished and can have a run out with it sometime soon. Will be in touch.

Still waiting for delivery of the suspension so plans this weekend have gone awry a bit. I got the brakes fully fitted but had a snag with the master cylinder. Front aluminium caliper carriers are a work of art:

Image
IMG_0672 by deansie1712, on Flickr

A small machining company called Turbo CNC Ltd in Mansfield made them for £60. They have my recommendation :thumb:

Image
IMG_0677 by deansie1712, on Flickr

I hit a snag with the master cylinder change. The item I bought is not interchangeable with the Z3m cylinder. It would help me a lot if a member with a non-M Z3 could take a look at their brake master cylinder and let me know whether it looks like the pic below. Sorrry about the bad picture quality but you can see that the forward port is angled rearwards. Is the non-M cylinder the same? And is the reservoir the same shape?

Image
IMG_0678 by deansie1712, on Flickr
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

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Titan
Joined: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 21:20
Posts: 4002

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: North Yorkshire

Post by Titan » Sun 15 May, 2011 18:26

MMMmmm
Nice caliper supports - pity they get hidden!
Deano1712 wrote: It would help me a lot if a member with a non-M Z3 could take a look at their brake master cylinder and let me know whether it looks like the pic below. Sorrry about the bad picture quality but you can see that the forward port is angled rearwards. Is the non-M cylinder the same? And is the reservoir the same shape?
Here you go
2001 build 2.2i
The reservoir is definitely more square and the front (H) brake line is angled forwards

Image
Image :devil:

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Deano1712
Z Register organiser
Joined: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 13:56
Posts: 1394

  M roadster S50
Location: Leeds

Post by Deano1712 » Sun 15 May, 2011 19:09

Thanks Terry. Damn though, I think I need to change the servo as well as the master, and the pipes are going to need re-routing. :head:

Hey can I buy your master/reservoir/servo? They look sooo clean would look good in my motor :lol:
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

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Titan
Joined: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 21:20
Posts: 4002

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: North Yorkshire

Post by Titan » Sun 15 May, 2011 19:18

Deano1712 wrote:Hey can I buy your master/reservoir/servo? They look sooo clean would look good in my motor :lol:
I'll swap them for a V8 ........ :P

Don't be too hard on yourself, I think the engine bay is slightly different - there is a small bulkhead around the servo.
I had to take the picture from above.
You can't see it looking from the same position as your photo.
Here's a wider shot which you may have seenbefore ;)

Image
Image :devil:

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