Z3M V8 Conversion

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Z3cade
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Z3cade » Fri 23 Nov, 2012 21:32

Hell yeah!!!!! :squeeze:

The exhaust system will make all the differents to the beast.. Look forward to hearing it
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chrisp_1
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by chrisp_1 » Fri 23 Nov, 2012 22:42

:shock: This thread is mental :D

If I had the time, space and money I'd love to play this game - if your going to mod it, same as anything else 'do it properly' and 'if at first you don't succeed' etc.

Enjoy. :drive

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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Sun 16 Dec, 2012 21:19

Happy days I'm now all set up to make new exhausts over the Christmas break. I invested in a decent ac/dc tig welder and after a few hours practicing I made a start today under the car. The welding is ok and getting better, Its very different to mig, more precise but also easier to do on the stainless.

The centre exhaust section is going to have twin 3" pipes which looks a bit massive. Calcs show it will give me a bit more power. More noise too I hope :)

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Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 19 Sep, 2017 21:07, edited 1 time in total.
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chrisp_1
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by chrisp_1 » Sun 16 Dec, 2012 21:38

Feck me! That looks like something fitted to a rocket :D

As above,... Lovin' your style though :thumb:

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aceman
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by aceman » Sun 16 Dec, 2012 22:34

chrisp_1 wrote:Feck me! That looks like something fitted to a rocket :D

As above,... Lovin' your style though :thumb:
Haha I was thinking the same.

Can't wait to see this it is going to sound awesome.
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Pierrick
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Pierrick » Sun 16 Dec, 2012 23:31

Just discovered this post!

Awesome work! Just mad! And like the other, can't wait to hear the new sound!

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pingu
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by pingu » Mon 17 Dec, 2012 18:49

Are you planning to re-route it and have it coming out of the boot lid where the BMW roundal is, flames and all?

Looking impressive :D .
Pingu

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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Thu 27 Dec, 2012 20:02

I'm loving tig welding! Welds are starting to get presentable after plenty of practice and a few cockups.
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I have the front pipes complete, each with a 200mm flex joint and V-band flanges at the rear end.
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The centre section is in progress using a single Cat and 2-1 Y tansitions at each end. Its quite time consuming since tig welding is slow and needs good fit-up between all the parts too.
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gookah
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by gookah » Thu 27 Dec, 2012 20:53

Cracking job with the TIG, takes some getting used to but is so relaxing when it's going right, feels a lot more skilled than pointing a stick or a auto-fed MIG wire at a lump of steel.

Also that workbench with the tools, and calculations looks like a proper old school Engineer's. :thumb: Dont suppose you have a set of wooden draws full of micrometers and measuring gauges too.
looking forward to seeing the progress of this exhaust.
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Brian H
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Brian H » Fri 28 Dec, 2012 09:51

As usual, a superb job.

I would love to be able to weld, last time I did some welding was whilst training as an apprentice (this was not yesterday) Note to self: early New Years resolution, learn to weld.

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si-forks
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by si-forks » Fri 28 Dec, 2012 09:59

Brian H wrote:As usual, a superb job.

I would love to be able to weld, last time I did some welding was whilst training as an apprentice (this was not yesterday) Note to self: early New Years resolution, learn to weld.
Ha exactly what I was going to say I wish I could weld I think an investigation into some sort of course in the new year is in order I would be happy just to learn how to spot weld.

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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Fri 28 Dec, 2012 10:36

Brian H wrote:As usual, a superb job.

I would love to be able to weld, last time I did some welding was whilst training as an apprentice (this was not yesterday) Note to self: early New Years resolution, learn to weld.
Thanks for the comments :-) THe welding is not perfect by any means but I'm happy with progress so far.

Get yourself up to my garage and I will teach you to weld. I have Aceman coming here today to have a go with the tig. Should be fun watching him burn holes through scrap plate :lol:
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aceman
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by aceman » Fri 28 Dec, 2012 16:08

Haha thanks for the crash course in TIG and MIG welding Mark I really enjoyed that. Picture of my first attempt to fuse two pieces of metal together is below. I must say TIG welding is a very smooth and satisfying process and I am sure with a little more practice I could quite take to this welding lark. :D

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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by J_K » Fri 11 Jan, 2013 12:50

Tig welder was one of the best things I ever bought.
Once I learned to use it.
I repair the wheels on my 530D touring all the time. It's not the right car to be travelling along Devon back roads all the time.

Just prototyping some Stainless baskets for a machine we make/sell at work. So handy to be able to make one. Try it. Hack about, re weld. Try again.

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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Sun 20 Jan, 2013 19:45

Time for an update lots done...

Centre exhaust section is now finished. I have retained the standard silencers for now so I grafted a v-band flange onto them. I made two centre sections. One has a CAT and the other doesn't you can guess what is going to be fitted for most of the time :lol:
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Most of the parts infront of the engine has been changed. The new PS pump fouled with the old air inlet so that had to change. The radiator has been upgraded and I made a shroud for the fan - good learning experience with aluminum tig welding. I hope this will make the cooling better since it has seemed marginal on hot days. I have tried to make a better job of the new parts to make the install look a bit more professional.
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Twin catch cans fitted:
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Next job is to make a new coolant header tank and then I will fire it up to see how it sounds :D
Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 19 Sep, 2017 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
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swamper
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by swamper » Sun 20 Jan, 2013 21:03

stunning....but looks a bit to clean under the bonnet... :D
you can tell you have got the hang of the welding :wink:
the badness makes me do it...!

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maurice the martian
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by maurice the martian » Mon 21 Jan, 2013 10:00

As usual another cracking job Mark,cant wait to hear it.
Ps are you taking orders,quite fancy a decent noisey exhaust on the Z4. :D
Moz

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markrnorton
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by markrnorton » Mon 21 Jan, 2013 12:09

Mark

Nice work, does the exhaust compromise ground clearance at all ?
and do you still require the cross over pipe considering the single cat (ie exhaust pulse with cross there ?)

Mark
Still modifying

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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Mon 21 Jan, 2013 12:39

Maurice - yes if you can wait a bit.

Mark - the tubing is all above the floor pan. I just have one v band flange at the rear thats a bit low. Its the same height as the lowest part of the tubing for the silencers so hopefully should be ok. I cant orient the clamp to the side. Maybe I could make a special clamp if it grounds out.

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aceman
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by aceman » Mon 21 Jan, 2013 13:35

Hi Mark, looking good in fact exceptionally good. :D

Good to see you have resolved the induction move and managed to sqeeze the catch tanks in although I notice you have not used that nice shiney elbow pipe you have. The radiator cowl looks good too I hope that works as we discussed and brings your temps down a bit but I suppose only time will tell on that one. One suggestion though I think that cowl might look better painted satin or matt black as it looks a bit agricultural if you get my drift. :wink:

Keep up the good works can't wait to hear it running. :thumb:
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PCSAM
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by PCSAM » Mon 21 Jan, 2013 14:02

stunning car mate . your overheating problem .
you can use the new waterless coolant stuff that's out ... has a boiling point of 180c :shock: im sure that would sort out your cooling problems :D and as its not water it will be better fro the big power beast you have .
http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/power-co ... -cars.html
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Southernboy
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Southernboy » Tue 22 Jan, 2013 09:13

That was worth the watching!! In favour of the Simota CAI there is the wonderful "growl" as the pedal hits the floor ..... :D And that is powerful stuff for the soul of a driver.
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chrisp_1
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by chrisp_1 » Sat 26 Jan, 2013 14:04

Growl aside Southernboy, it's pretty clear '(n these tests) that cold air set-ups don't work on a dyno - I can't see them working when moving either unless you can find a way of 'forcing' the air from an external source via piping and a modded air box either.

That said I once paid £30 for a K&N panel filter for my MX5 and that did free-up the revs a little and made it sound better - not really considered doing likewise on the M though, it's way to quick for normal road use as it is, the chassis is the limiting factor on the Z3 IMHO.

Pierrick
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Pierrick » Sat 26 Jan, 2013 17:27

Interesting! So there is no point at prending money on aftermarket/cold air filetrs! The only gain will be the weight loss by removing the airbox!

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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Jamezee » Thu 31 Jan, 2013 23:24

Mark, This epic 'mod' is awesome, it puts my four replica bmw dustcaps 'mod' which is the only 'mod' I have done into the shade! :wink:
I can't wait to hear it, perhaps on a Yorkshire cruise?! My shifts are more flexible now so am hoping to get on more this year.
Good effort :)
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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Mon 04 Feb, 2013 21:04

Jamezee wrote:Mark, This epic 'mod' is awesome, it puts my four replica bmw dustcaps 'mod' which is the only 'mod' I have done into the shade! :wink:
I can't wait to hear it, perhaps on a Yorkshire cruise?! My shifts are more flexible now so am hoping to get on more this year.
Good effort :)
Yes we will have to do a cruise in a couple of months. :D
The grand plan this weekend was to fire the engine up but it didnt quite work out since I had to spend a while getting the new coolant tank to seal. Its sorted now so the next post will have a video of the new exhaust note (hopefully). Work gets in the way of getting as much done as I would like.

Aluminium welding is an odd thing to master when used to welding steel. I am getting the hang of it but should have done more practice before starting out on the tank.
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Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 19 Sep, 2017 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Jamezee
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Jamezee » Mon 04 Feb, 2013 23:20

Deano1712 wrote:
Jamezee wrote:Mark, This epic 'mod' is awesome, it puts my four replica bmw dustcaps 'mod' which is the only 'mod' I have done into the shade! :wink:
I can't wait to hear it, perhaps on a Yorkshire cruise?! My shifts are more flexible now so am hoping to get on more this year.
Good effort :)
Yes we will have to do a cruise in a couple of months. :D
The grand plan this weekend was to fire the engine up but it didnt quite work out since I had to spend a while getting the new coolant tank to seal. Its sorted now so the next post will have a video of the new exhaust note (hopefully). Work gets in the way of getting as much done as I would like.

Aluminium welding is an odd thing to master when used to welding steel. I am getting the hang of it but should have done more practice before starting out on the tank.
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I know what you mean, all work and no play and all that...

Look forward to a cruise :)
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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Thu 07 Feb, 2013 18:33

My choice of silencers for the car is causing trouble - I cant get hold of any Megan Racing silencers in the right configuration. Looking through ebay came across this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310434977578? ... 1438.l2649
Looks good but the outlets are twin 88mm. Are these too large for the car? I know the some run eisenmann 82mm tips but these are bigger still. Ok to use??
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aceman
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by aceman » Thu 07 Feb, 2013 19:09

Hi Mark,

You could always give Tony Banks a call on 01132 089830 he is a longlife exhaust dealer and can probably get what you want plus he is only in Leeds.
Aceman

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Southernboy
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Southernboy » Fri 08 Feb, 2013 05:01

This thread detracts fom the V8 theme, however, exhausts are not just pipes and boxes...if they're not configured correctly you could end up with some undesirable issues. Attenuation is one, another and somewhat less obvious one is, that boxes are meant to create a pressure vacuum so that in effect the gasses are "sucked" out of the system as well as pushed by the exhaust stroke of the motor. The expansion of the gasses into the boxes causes a negative pressure further up the line, this assists the motor, increases power, and ensures a well balanced system which isn't under pressure. The OEM system is designed that way, and if you change it to non OEM, you really need a good professional to put it together for you so that it works as well or preferably better than OEM. Not much point in lots of noise and a choked exhaust system. Each bend creates a choke point, and needs to be considered in a well designed system. More pipes don't automatically equate to a better system. As you will see on the dragsters, no boxes = shorter pipes..ie they vent within 3 - 4 feet of the heads..so no back pressure and very little effort required by the motor to pump the gasses out. The longer the exhaust pipes the more back pressure, and hence the need for boxes that act as silencers, and vacuum inducers to assist the removal of gasses. It's a science which really requires a sound engineering understanding of moving very hot gasses in large volumes. Research the issues involved, and get the most professional input you can afford..it's really worth it. You will get an efficient system which will give you the desired "note".
As an example, I've read threads here where people have complained about "tinny" sounding exhaust notes etc etc...well, yes it's a combination of factors, materials, position, and specification of the pipes and boxes. Don't be spending money on parts that may last a lifetime, but also detract from your engine performance for that lifetime... :wink:
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siwilson
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by siwilson » Fri 08 Feb, 2013 15:39

I have te 83mm Eisenmanns and they are just about the buggiest you could use without serious trimming of the bumper.

Maybe side pipes re the answer :evil:

As to southern boy comment on pressure and suction. The X section shown earlier in the thread generates this as the gas from the previous stroke creates the suction for the next. It's the smooth flow hat prevents the resonance. I have herd V8s without this and they sound horrid loud.

Great reading this thread and great workmanship.

Si.
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Southernboy
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Southernboy » Fri 08 Feb, 2013 15:52

The "X" or crossflow in the system on a V8 is to elliminate the exhaust from one side of the motor only "beating" out of either the left or right tail pipe...that's what makes it sound so ugly. In a straight six, 3 cylinders are vented by one header and 3 by the other...therefore even with a six you need to have the crossflow section if you have a dual pipe exhausting all the way to the rear to avoid that sound as in the Z3 M exhaust system. If, as in the 2.8 and 3.0 versions you have the two headers joining up to a single pipe it negates the need for the crossflow piece as all 6 cylinders are exhausting from a single rear box. It is the expansion into the boxes that creates the negative pressures required to draw the gasses out of the headers. The crossflow ensures that all cylinders exhaust out of both sides at the tailpipes, giving a steady uniform beat. It also means that both sides of the system are used fully to minimise back pressures at the headers.
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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Fri 08 Feb, 2013 20:28

siwilson wrote:I have te 83mm Eisenmanns and they are just about the buggiest you could use without serious trimming of the bumper.Si.
Thanks Si that was the answer I was looking for. I think i will give them a miss I dont necessarily mind trimming the bumper but maybe 4 off 88mm pipes will look a bit too much. The silencers I want are 3" pipes at the outlet. I can get 2 1/2" inlet versions of the silencers ok but the 3" version is on 2-month back order so will have to wait or find an alternative.
Will give that guy a call Ian - does he make silencers?
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aceman
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by aceman » Fri 08 Feb, 2013 22:04

Not sure if he actually makes them or buys the blanks in and welds your choice of tips and pipes on, good fabricator though from some of the work I have seen.
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Z3cade » Fri 08 Feb, 2013 22:26

Come on Deano.... We're all waiting to hear the new exhaust note :twisted:
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pingu
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by pingu » Sat 09 Feb, 2013 03:45

I know Deano has read Vizard et al, so I would be shocked if he hasn't selected the best compromise exhaust for his engine.

I just hope it doesn't look like four chav dustbins at the back :shock: .


Saddo Bit

Exhausts are a compromise. Even a tuned exhaust is only efficient at one point on the rev band. This is usually chosen as either peak torque revs, or peak power revs. Knowing the size of the engine allows you to chose the pipe diameter, and knowing the revs allows you to chose the header lengths and the exhaust lengths. Correct choice of the diameter/length leads to the exhaust pulse of one cycle being "sucked" by a previous cycle. At non-optimised engine speeds, a previous cycle's pulse can slow down the exhaust gas and actually choke the engine. This is why the chosen design should be tested across all engine speeds to ensure the estimated back-pressure is not too much, especially at low engine speeds. If it is it can cause the engine to stall, or necessitate higher idle speed.

Plenty more reading on line for those that are interested :nerd: .
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Sat 09 Feb, 2013 18:39

I dont see it being complicated. The engine needs low back pressure in the exhaust. Twin 3" pipes will give me that with growth potential to ~700hp if I want to increase the engine power more in the future. Most of the scavenging is done in the header and 4 into 1 long tubes with equal length primaries will do that nicely. I have put the exhaust x-pipe as close to the engine as possible to give it chance to help out too.

Got the engine running today, for the first time in 4-months. Its very nice to hear it running :) The cooling system seems all good - no leaks - and the electric fan seems to work better than before running for 20 secs and off again to cool 98 to 95 degrees. The exhaust still sounds a bit tame but it will be getting new silencers before I'm done...


With the air inlet to the RHS I need a new screenwash tank so made a start on that today:
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siwilson
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by siwilson » Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:03

Mark,

Not sure of you saw this, but some good exhaust info on the LS1 conversion.

Si.
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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Fri 22 Feb, 2013 11:26

Si - I have watched the build of that car (garage job) but didnt know he was selling it. Interesting to spend all that money and then sell. I would rather die first! It looks clean but there are aspects I dont like. The air inlet is open in the enging bay so will draw in hot air. There are no braces , x-brace underneath or on the towers. The exhausts look ok but much better with twin tips. He used twin 3"pipes as I am doing. I am glad I waited to source the silencers I felt were perfect...they arrived today. :D
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Oh...the name is Mark Dean. People call me Mark or Deano :wink:
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Pierrick
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Pierrick » Fri 22 Feb, 2013 22:06

Very nice back boxes! Where did you get them?

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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by maurice the martian » Fri 22 Feb, 2013 22:25

Oh...the name is Mark Dean. People call me Mark or Deano :wink:[/quote]

I prefer to call you and your zed ..
The Hooligan:grin::grin::grin:
Moz
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Deano1712
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  M roadster S50
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Sat 23 Feb, 2013 11:15

haha very funny
Pierrick - the silencers are Megan Racing, part MR-MU-MDT-T. They do a 2 1/2" inlet version which would work well for a standard z3m. Im thinking of making a few sets to sell on when I have got the 'hooligan' back on the road.
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Deano1712
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Sat 23 Feb, 2013 18:07

Zedonist wrote:What is the expected BHP of this mod, the USA one that s up for sale in this thread was a 400BHP engine, seems a lot of expense in terms of money and man hours for so little gain that they could have got the same performance from robust mods of the existing 3.2. Or is it a because I can challenge, certainly resale value also depends on finding a buyer for what was already a niche market as a standard Z3M, so getting your investment back is very unlikely.

Please forgive my question, I think the build is extremely interesting and has galvanised some ideas in my mind, just wanted to understand the why?
Rich
Rich,
I dont plan to sell the car so the financial aspect of resale doesnt come into it. It has cost more than I planned but has turned into a hobby and a learning experience, from the weekend toy car that it was. There is also a sense of pride. Power is around 500 and torque 475lbs.ft. Standard S50 is ~300 and 258 so there is a very significant hike, plus a gorgeous noise to go with it. Sure I could have got a good increase with a supercharged S50 but where is a fun in that? Dont forget I have brand new bullet proof engine and gearbox which can take abuse all day and can be upgraded to give much more power if I get the urge.
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Fri 29 Mar, 2013 22:11

I have been making rear exhausts...bit concerned to get the tips central so ended up making a little wooden jig to get the mounts on the new silencers in the same place as the old...
Here is the jig half made with the standard Z3M RHS rear.
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New silencer with mounts fitted.
Image
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Fitted compared to the old it looks good. Happy days. Gonna take some cleaning though!
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Here is the fun bit...I had to shift the car before making a joint for the exhaust so here is a LS3 with open exhausts. Love it :)

YouTube J858k0J50wA
Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 19 Sep, 2017 21:21, edited 2 times in total.
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power

Pierrick
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Pierrick » Fri 29 Mar, 2013 22:21

wow!!! very loud!! would be fun to try it full blast on a race track!

keep up the good work!, but it's nearly the end now! what's left to do?

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Southernboy
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Southernboy » Sat 30 Mar, 2013 03:29

If you haven't done so already, you might try using some of the exhaust wrap on the exhaust manifolds in the engine bay areas. It will keep the heat inside the manifolds vs letting it permeate the engine bay and provide better cooling opportunity for the radiator system...???
"Normal is overrated"
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Sat 30 Mar, 2013 20:30

Manifolds are ceramic coated Barry so no problems there. I have the air inlet for the engine ducted from the bottom of the bumper so it will be cold and a bit of ram effect too I hope.

Pierrick - I just need to make the other silencer and the car is mobile and back on the road. Im fitting a half dozen temperature sensors and a small lcd display so I can keep track of everything. That little project is nearing completion too.

Longer term there are still things on the list. It could do with a higher ratio diff, and various cosmetics jobs to do.

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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Southernboy » Sun 31 Mar, 2013 07:30

The ceramic coating must have been a large budget item!! I've considered it, but the cost is considerable...also the task of removing / replacing the manifold is deterring...You're obviously not skimping anywhere on your project! :wink:
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by Deano1712 » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 19:11

Its been a long slow job making these exhausts but I'm all done now after a few hours work today. I dont get as much free time these days so any major job is a long one :-(
The LHS exhaust is here and fits nice.
Image

Its sounds deep and loud! Ace. The girlfriend is going to hate it :twisted:


The last project for now is getting some instrumentation on to monitor temperatures. I have been working on an Arduino driven module to detect 6 temperatures (for now). I'm using digital sensors (DS1820) displaying out onto a 4x20 LCD. This will be fitted on/in the dash somewhere. The pic shows the layout of it setup on a breadboard. It displays 6-temperatures over three lines and messages/warnings along the bottom depending on whats going on with the temperatures. The board on the right is the start of the version that will go in the car. I will put a small enclosure under the dashboard. There will be a datalogging feature so all temperatures will be recorded onto a USB stick as I drive. Neat. I'm aiming to get the road speed measured too so the Arduino can log how fast I have been going and also use the signal to power the reverse interlock (at very low speed only). Its easily re-programmed so it will be a versatile feature. I also have a CAN interface shield so will some day try to get that pulling data direct from the engine.
Image
Last edited by Deano1712 on Tue 19 Sep, 2017 21:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Z3M V8 Conversion

Post by ('_')Z3 » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 19:30

OMG!!!!! 8-)
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