Z3m Dyno and Remap results

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Z3m Dyno and Remap results

Postby Jonttt » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 10:55

Well did the deed yesturday :D

After fitting a Simota induction kit recently

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19809

I decided to get the car a full fluid change ( including diff oil) at my local indie before a remap. I had intended getting the valve clearances done but the indie insisted it would be a waste of money as the car sounded fine. He reckoned he could tell if they needed doing and mine did not. I was a bit sceptical as there is no record of them being done for some years and the car has done 80,000 miles. I wanted it spot on pre dyno and remap but in the end he was quite insistant that I would be wasting my money so I went with his advice.

I decided to take the car to Evolve in Luton (where I got the indiction kit from). They are a 3 hour drive from me (alright 2 :drive :wink: ) but I had heard good reports about them and they have featured in lots of the mags for their remaps / mods on BMW's.

The drive down gave me a chance to "benchmark" the Z on motorway cruising. I've only done a few hundred miles in the car since I got it so I was looking forward to the 350 mile round trip.

I found Evolve no problem and spent 2 hours there whilst they dyno'd a benchmark, remapped and re dyno'd.

There where some surprising results.

I had read that you can expect c 300-310 BHP from a stock ///M S50 (against BMW's claimed 321BHP) and so I was expecting /would have been happy with 290 - 300 BHP from my 80,000 miler.

The pre remap dyno showed 324.5 BHP :shock:

This seemed to really surprise the guys from Evolve compared to other cars they have done. I brought into question if the car had been remapped already but they confirmed it had not when the backed up the existing mapping. Also the car came with really extensive history and I'm sure any paperwork confirming a previous remap would have been there.

I have no benchmark pre induction kit fitting but there is a really good article in the months (marked as May I think) BMW performance mag. They have just got a Zm Coupe same year as mine as a staff car and their first mod is the Gruppe M induction kit which is very similar to the Simota. They where astounded to confirm a 10BHP increase from the induction kit alone :!:

Net result seems that I have a "spot on" S50 engine and my indie must have been right not to touch it :D

This then brought a dilema as I could not really expect the remap to push the BHP much further with an otherwise stock engine. But I did not want the remap for a BHP increase but more to optimise the power through the revs.

I sat around for 45 min whilst they backed up my existing mapping and set up and uploaded the remap.

Friendly set of guys there (you could spend a fortune listening to the mods they can do). I looked over a silver ///M Coupe they had in from Europe. A guy had driven it over,left it with them, flown off to China on business and was collecting it in a few weeks after some extensive mods.

Anyway time for the post remap Dyno.

I had already read that it can take 100 miles or so after for the car to Re learn and optimise its settings (I have also been told this by dealers as well after picking up new cars).

So Evolve ran 6 post remap dyno runs. Each one produced slight increases resulting in a cool 331 BHP :D . We agreed that 6 runs had pushed the car enough for one day and I was more than happy with that result (with maybe a little following my return motorway trip :wink: )

Now I'm no expert in these power graphs so I'll post them up for comment.

After seeing these pre remap results I am certain that the extra "kick" I could feel after I fitted the induction kit was real.

The journey on the way back was superb to say the least. The remap may be subtle and is hard to put into words. It is definately noticable on the motorway in 5th gear. There is an extra "urgency" and no hesistancy as you squeeze the pedal and pass a car that has pulled across at a speed that I would normally kick down. Of course you can still do that but the feeling is so much more silky with that induction wine when you can just leave it in 5th.

Once I got off the motorway nearer to home the response seemed a little more brutal and definately more responsive. There is more of a kick in the back rather than a shove and I remember thinking I'm so glad the rear diff has been strengthened as the rear end not so much squats down but almost feels to bottom out under hard acceleration :shock:

To say I am chuffed is an under statement :D

Graphs I don't understand, real world driving I do and in direct comparison the car feels a lot more responsive.

Would I recommend the remap, damn right I would. Get the induction kit as well but make sure your engine is sorted first. You can really feel the added "brutality" from the remap which must benefit from that extra airflow.

I would also recommend Evolve. They are not the cheapest (or the most expensive) but they are used by people far more experienced than me and you know you are getting a tried an tested product from them :rtm:

Here is the before and after graph

Image


Some piccies on the dyno

Image

Image


A little video :wink:

Image
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Postby pangster » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 11:17

looks good Jonttt! - very impressive results!! - I bet your chuffed! :)

did they give you a graph showing your AFR as well?
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Postby Jonttt » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 11:27

No I didn't ask for the AFR as graphs don't really mean much to me.

I will email them and ask as they saved the results which I presume include this ratio as standard ?

I'll see what they say and pst up if I can get it :wink:
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Postby pangster » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 11:30

jonttt wrote:No I didn't ask for the AFR as graphs don't really mean much to me.

I will email them and ask as they saved the results which I presume include this ratio as standard ?

I'll see what they say and pst up if I can get it :wink:


cool!! when I was looking at your graphs before and wondering why they didn't cross at 5250 rpm but it because they've used 2 different scales on the Y axis :head:

have you noticed a difference in MPG?
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Postby Kolgan » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 11:33

Nice figure for a quite close standart S50 :D
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Postby Jonttt » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 11:39

Pangster, you should know better than to ask an ///M owner about MPG because its embarrasing and if above 20 its not your weekend car :roflmao:

I don't have a clue what it was before and don't really want to measure it as it would probably freighten me.

I fell into that trap years ago with imprezza's whe we use to brag about who had the lowest MPG :head:

(plus I have a fully expensed company fuel card and my boss agreed if I got a diesel business car I could fuel up the ///M :wink: )

I think the answer is if your worried about MPG affect you shouldn't be thinking about a remap. However, I did not notice any difference in a non scientific way ie I didn't run out of fuel after 150 miles of hard driving :D
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Postby pangster » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 11:55

jonttt wrote:Pangster, you should know better than to ask an ///M owner about MPG because its embarrasing and if above 20 its not your weekend car :roflmao:

I don't have a clue what it was before and don't really want to measure it as it would probably freighten me.

I fell into that trap years ago with imprezza's whe we use to brag about who had the lowest MPG :head:

(plus I have a fully expensed company fuel card and my boss agreed if I got a diesel business car I could fuel up the ///M :wink: )

I think the answer is if your worried about MPG affect you shouldn't be thinking about a remap. However, I did not notice any difference in a non scientific way ie I didn't run out of fuel after 150 miles of hard driving :D


I thought you would have had a fuel computer to do all the maths for you! LOL! - the reason I was asking about MPG is that normally after a remap you see a slight increase - due to the map leaning out the AFR.. so it's probably a good side benefit! :)

You can now feel all warm an fluffy inside knowing that you're now doing your bit for the environment! :twisted:
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Postby Jonttt » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 15:00

Cool

I can tell people I have had my car modified so that it is more environmentally friendly :D
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Postby jester212 » Sun 12 Apr, 2009 18:33

Well thats my mind made up. Evolve it os for my re-map then. Will be phoning them on Monday to discuss my options.
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Postby Waitey » Sun 19 Apr, 2009 18:46

They did 6 runs and then gave up on the fact they thought it'd be enough?

Hell when mapping my MX-5 turbo we did 54 runs in 4 hours. And that was pushing 15psi of boost through an other wise standard engine!
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Postby BEN! » Sun 19 Apr, 2009 19:29

Waitey wrote:They did 6 runs and then gave up on the fact they thought it'd be enough?

Hell when mapping my MX-5 turbo we did 54 runs in 4 hours. And that was pushing 15psi of boost through an other wise standard engine!


There would of been no need to do more dyno runs, the car will always adapts to the dyno so will increase by .5 or 1 bhp each time which after a few runs is pointless as the map is already on the car, and its not about top BHP for the sake of a dyno graph its about how the power is delivered and how the car drives. Plus your not going to get much more power out of an S50 with a remap and induction kit.

Evolve know exactly what they are doing, they are the only guys i would ever trust with my cars!
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Postby Waitey » Sun 19 Apr, 2009 20:17

Oh so it was just an off the shelf map and not a tailored one.

Where was the intake temp sensor placed?

27degs seems high when the ambient temp is 13.
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Postby Jonttt » Mon 20 Apr, 2009 08:07

Waitey

I should have said it was an off the shelf remap.

It was not worth getting a live remap done on a stock S50 (apart from induction kit) when these guys have doen so much research over the years on their remaps.

It was interesting talking to them about live remaps. They laugh about a lot of the advertised live remap as they reckon it is impossible to do through the OBDC socket. The ECU has to be piggybacked or another time consuming way (can't remember the other way - I'm defo no expert at these things) and only needs doing when cars have some serious mods to the engine.

Not sure re the sensors, they put some wires under the hood and I remember them connectng one near to the induction kit but didn't look exactly where. I was that scared of going in front of the biggest industrial fan I have seen in my life which was sitting in front of the bonnet :shock:

The car had just done a 160 mile trip down the motorway though ?

It was never about BHP for me I was just surprised at the readings. I am chuffed with the extra response from the throttle. The graph to me says not a lot changed, my right foot says it has :D
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Postby Waitey » Mon 20 Apr, 2009 08:55

John i'd agree with the fact they are hard to live map. BMW ECU's like to self adjust to find an afr of 13 at WOT. In some cases this has caused cors to revert back to the old map almost. The same happens on Pug ecu's too.

I think i live map would be do able its just be time consuming like you said.

On the other note i thing the Intake temps look a little high. When i've had my old stuff mapped its never normally 4degree's over ambient. Maybe ///M are Hot Hot! :lol:
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Postby Jonttt » Mon 20 Apr, 2009 12:34

Waitey

I think your right. The car had just been well and truly "roadtested" pre remap on the way there and went striaght onto the dyno :wink:

Having caught my strut brace by accident after a run I can safely say things get very hot under the hood :oops:
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Postby BEN! » Mon 20 Apr, 2009 12:46

Live mapping on a car with only an induction kit is a waste of time and money if it is actually done correctly!

A lot of companies out there and i mean a lot of "top" lol tuning companies say they can live map your BMW and will do it for £300-450, its not going to happen for that, the amount of people who are tricked into it is shocking!

But i think the amount of people getting stung like this is becoming less and less, at least with places like Evolve they tell it how it is and you know you are getting value for money and a great product!

Also the dyno results that Evolve put out might not make the headline figures that other companies claim, but they are very realistic, and as has been said its how the car drives that matter more than BHP and Torque figures.
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Postby Jonttt » Fri 24 Apr, 2009 08:03

Guys

I have had some pm's about the stats on the above dyno graph.

I thank people for those comments (thats why I posted it :wink: )

As I have already said I am no expert at these things and am genuinely happy with the changes in the way the car responds to the throttle. BHP was never my main concern.

However, I would not like to think that the stats have been "manipulated" to represent something they are not. I will therefore challange Evolve to provide a response via this post so that things are clear.

The issue seems to be that there is a marked difference between the Ambient Temperature (AT) and Internal Temperature (IT) on the graph readings. I have been informed that this is an "old trick" to represent a higher BHP reading than actual.

Hopefully Evolve will respond (I will invite them via email) with a logical explanation.
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Postby maahny » Fri 24 Apr, 2009 09:04

Hi guys

Johntt has asked me to respond to this thread because people are questioning the dyno plot namely the difference between ambient and intake temps.

The intake probe is placed in front of the filter in the Simota kit. If it is reading as 14 degrees above ambient, thats what it is reading.

Most people now know the "trick" with the using the temp probe to manipulate dyno figures, in fact we have been responsible for educating people about this so they can look out for dodgy dyno graphs. We have done so much work on S50 engines, including cams, carbon airboxes, alpha N and live mapping we do not need to manipulate a graph to show a 7 BHP when most people claim + 20-30 BHP from this engine with just a remap!

I knew johntt would be posting this graph on the forum, as most of our customers do. Most of our customers will also tell you that we show them how the dyno can be tricked so they can look out for it themselves.

We have many happy S50 customers on z3mcoupe/e36coupe/pistonheads who have had their cars dyno'd on Surrey Rolling Roads Dyno and have made the same or more power on that Dyno Dynamics.

If anyone is questioning the graph please contact Mike Gurney of Dyno Dynamics UK and ask him if its valid.

I am not going to get involved in this any further as previous experience teaches me it will just lead to taking up to much of my time explaining things to professed experts which will fall on deaf ears. I have a Z3M S50 to finish with Cams, exhaust, Carbon Airbox with Alpha N and live mapping that has come to us from Prague and we have to finish for tomorrow so back to work for me.
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Postby Michael McGovern » Fri 24 Apr, 2009 12:43

hey do you have power readings from the wheels or isit just from the flywheel?
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Postby dooby » Sat 25 Apr, 2009 12:35

I had the same remap done at evolve on a standard car and was please with the results. I now have a ITG intake and it feels even better.

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
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Postby Jonttt » Sun 26 Apr, 2009 19:38

Dooby

Thanks for the link to your previous post for comparison. Not sure how relevant but both of us showed similar internal temperature of 26 & 27 degrees. My external temp was 13 degrees (which was about right o that day) but yours was much higher in the 20's (ie was in July and presumably a nice day?)

Cheers Maahny for the reply :wink:
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Postby dooby » Sat 02 May, 2009 14:10

Yes that right was mid summer mate.
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