S54 Recall

[DavidM]

This is a recall on all S54 engine apart from the CSL

Can you confirm or deny that it applies to the S54 Roadsters and Coupés - as this appears to be confused in the US and Europe - and two dealers I spoke to don't have a clue

[ADD]

This is a recall on all S54 engine apart from the CSL

Can you confirm or deny that it applies to the S54 Roadsters and Coupés - as this appears to be confused in the US and Europe - and two dealers I spoke to don't have a clue

I did ask if the recall applies to the S54 M Roadster and I was told it applies to all cars which have the S54 engine apart from the CSL.

Maybe a lot of people don't know that the M Roadster had the newer M3 engine at the end of its production life as there were only 79 UK RHD cars?

Adam

[ZZZEMMCO]

Hi Adam, Great update and impressed with the variety of work.Interesting that the CSL with all its mods, dosnt invalid the warranty but presume it would , if a problem with say the AP brake set up.

So another twist to the S54 Engine recall saga--One of the S54 MCoupe forum members , has mailed a letter to BMW GB on 4th October.
A polite and to the point request, for confirmation of the position on the confused situation, and that the reply will go up on Z forums.

If the subject and proceedure was well defined inhouse, would have thought that a reply , would have been returned within a few days.

[Giles]

Re S54 recall on ZMs & Coupe's, whilst there may presently be confusion about an actual recall, I guess in the meantime if you are unlucky enough to have the shells spin, at least there can be no arguing about having an engine replacement to fix the issue as it now it appears to be officially recognised, albeit within another model (M3).

[DavidM]

This is a recall on all S54 engine apart from the CSL

Can you confirm or deny that it applies to the S54 Roadsters and Coupés - as this appears to be confused in the US and Europe - and two dealers I spoke to don't have a clue

I did ask if the recall applies to the S54 M Roadster and I was told it applies to all cars which have the S54 engine apart from the CSL.

Maybe a lot of people don't know that the M Roadster had the newer M3 engine at the end of its production life as there were only 79 UK RHD cars?

Adam

I am not doubting you - but I asked my dealer again - and got them to check with BMW GB - and have just been told, "No it does not apply to M Roadsters or Coupés" - my bet is that someone does not know what the hell they are talking about - at BMW GB that is. But until they get the information straight and clarify this, the two dealers in question say that they cannot perform the recall action - aggggggghhhhh!

[Nick]

Re S54 shells spin,

Is this caused by the oil pump problem?

See link
Oil issues
6 years warranty sounds good!

Nick

[Giles]

Nick as I understand it the spun shell scenario is the symptom of the problem, hence recall notice to rectify before it happens. If it does, then it's new engine time

[DavidM]

And this, Giles, it what amuses me - rather than clarify the situation, BMW GB, through their muddiness over this issue, are potentially openning themselves up to far higher costs than just doing the recall for less than 80 engines - I don't know how much the recall would cost them on the number of cars invloved but I bet it is less than the cost of replacing a handful of engines

[Giles]

David - agree absolutely!

[DavidM]

And also a bad name for the S54 engine if a few blow and BMW did nothig despite knowing about it - personally I would have thought that their reputation was worth more than that

[steve1]

Have recently visited local dealers, and asked this question, but instead of asking someone sitting behind a desk( no disrespect to people who sit behind desks) I asked the workshop manager, who I know quite well, he said it does not affect ZMCOUPES with the new s54 engine in it as these had a different batch of internals fitted to them, so no need to worry, I have no reason to doubt him, as he also said that they had done 3 re-calls that week on the ones that are affected. I take it this would also apply to the roadster. But I agree, it would be nice to get this confirmed, with an explanation, from BMWGB, just keep up the warranty.

steve.

[PhilT]

Steve1

sorry mate, but you should doubt him as he's either mis-informed or talking rubbish - I can tell you from personal experience that this fault does affect M Coupes.

[DavidM]

And as a number of US owners and Giles will testify - there have been blown S54 M Roadsters - the most impressive of which actually blew part of the crank case out

[OliZ]

And as a number of US owners and Giles will testify - there have been blown S54 M Roadsters - the most impressive of which actually blew part of the crank case out

any pictures?
Hopefully nobody way injured...

I think I'd prefer a good old-fashioned Vanos failure to that!

[ZZZEMMCO]

OliZ , Now-theres a man with the right priorities

any pictures?
Hopefully nobody was injured...


The camera Never lies-----Well !!!!!!----------now and again!!

[DavidM]

here's another one - http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73511

Here is the one tha tblew part of the casing out - http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... engine+s54

Photos have gone though - it was pretty impressive - Giles saw them

[DavidM]

I lied - I found the photos (or rather Shawn did )

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/z3/5329571-1.html

[OliZ]

OliZ , Now-theres a man with the right priorities

any pictures?
Hopefully nobody was injured...

Oh man, the thought that someone might get injured came after the idea I'd like to see how that looks. How easily to be misunderstood.

[steve1]

Steve1

sorry mate, but you should doubt him as he's either mis-informed or talking rubbish - I can tell you from personal experience that this fault does affect M Coupes.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune mate, was it covered by warranty, I honestly had no reason to doubt him, perhaps he's more of a company man than what I thought.

steve.

[exdos]

I'm the guy who has written to BMW about S54 recalls for the M Coupe and below is the transcript of my letter. I will post the reply here if/when I get one:

____________________________________________


BMW (GB) Ltd
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell
Berkshire
RG12 8TA

4th October 2004


Recall of S54 Z3 M Coupe


Dear sir or madam,

I am the owner of a Z3 M Coupe (S54 version) manufactured in January 2002. As an owner of an M Coupe I also participate in an internet newsgroup forum http://www.z3mcoupe.com which is dedicated to the exchange of information amongst fellow M Coupe owners mostly within the UK.

One of the topics which has been discussed on the forum at http://www.z3mcoupe.com is the fact that BMW has recalled all M3 models which apparently are fitted with the same engine as fitted to the S54 M Coupe, yet, to date, BMW has made no attempt to recall any S54 M Coupe. Further, it is understood that there is a cohort of S54 M Coupes which are particularly likely to suffer engine failures, which is M Coupes manufactured between October 2001 and February 2002. In view of the fact that my M Coupe is one of that cohort, I am therefore writing to BMW (GB) on mine and on behalf of the other S54 owners participating on the http://www.z3mcoupe.com newsgroup to request to know:
a.) if BMW intends to recall any S54 M Coupes for engine checks and/or rectification?
b.) if so, when?
c.) if not, why not?
d.) if engine failure occurs to an out of warranty S54 M Coupe at some future date, will BMW cover all the costs and expenses in rectifying such problems?

It is my intention to post both this letter and your letter of reply on the http://www.z3mcoupe.com website, and as such I request that you provide a definitive explanation for all to see.

Many thanks in advance for your attention to this matter.


Yours sincerely,
etc.

[TonyCal]

And this, Giles, it what amuses me - rather than clarify the situation, BMW GB, through their muddiness over this issue, are potentially openning themselves up to far higher costs than just doing the recall for less than 80 engines - I don't know how much the recall would cost them on the number of cars invloved but I bet it is less than the cost of replacing a handful of engines

Actually its a few more than 80 David, add up the S54 Roadsters and Coupes on the registry site, all specs. It comes to 3101 S54 engined ZM's in various guises, I suppose you could deduct a few for cars that never get used,or have been written off. It would still be around 3000 cars that would need a recall, for the work to be done. I cant get any figures for the E46 M3 off the registry site possiblly as its still in production, but I would imagine that the figures there are way higher than the Z's.
It must be costing a fortune just to do the M3's, so the Z's get left to be dealt with as and when anything happens.

[DavidM]

By 80 I meant the cars which BMW GB has to deal with - there is a US & European TSB out - which is equally unclear - and specifically excludes the UK - you are correct in that I missed the coupes - so if you add in the UK coupes in S54 guise - I reckon you are still talking < 150 cars - remember at this point I am referring only to the cars that I feel it is BMW GBs responsibility to sort out

[PhilT]

Steve1,
No problem, and yeah it was all covered by warranty and was sorted out pretty much straight away with no real hassle - they even put me a new clutch in for nowt while they were at it.

Think maybe the problem is that most dealers know very little about the M Coupe, because they are relatively rare - I've owned 2 and that's been my experience anyway.

[rayl]

[quote="TonyCal")
It comes to 3101 S54 engined ZM's in various guises, I suppose you could deduct a few for cars that never get used,or have been written off.[/quote]

So that will leave about 16 then Tony

Just a little humor for a serious thread.


Ray

[rayl]

or maybe even humour


Ray

[steve1]

You guys might like to know that this topic is being discussed in depth on www.bmwcarclubgb.co.uk on the m power forum.

steve.

[DavidM]

You meaning this one - http://www.bmwcarclubforum.co.uk/forum_ ... PN=1&TPN=1

[steve1]

Thanx.

[steve1]

Thanx.

AGAIN

[321bhp]

all this probs wid the s54 engine
i tell ya im glad it was only the vanos on the s50 engine,at least bmw said,the vanos is a problem,im sure they will sort this out in due course ,when enough people enquire about it

[Phoenix Nights]

Good idea - and perhaps even those of us that are NOT currently owners could pen something relevant (perhaps a little briefer) to bring attention to the matter.

(this reply refers to DavidM's suggestion. Sequence has gone awry).

[DavidM]

Thinking aloud here - could all the S54 owners use Jon's letter as a template and send them into BMW GB - that way they may understand that this is more than one or two owners who are concerned

[ZZZEMMCO]

As can be seen from the Club Forum , and Z forums-THIS subject aint going away!! and one comment says "You Are nearly there"on the extended warranty issue.

So USA NO 1 market-No prob , OZ (with respect )LOW on the market S54 sales No prob-, UK--No 3 in World sales P--- off.

How this subject is being handled within GB , is an insult to the loyal White & Blue supporters, that have made AG a success.

Each Countries BMW AG company decides their market philosophy and how an item is projected , how important they feel the client base will react to an issue ++++.So US & OZ -Dont mess with them --UK ?? +*%6$"- (this IS a family Forum---)

The UK market will NOT forget the Vanos-S54-issues, and Unspoken and Unwritten in Motor Magazines, the TRADE WILL pass judgement on this issue for Years to come -- in the most attention grabbing way- trade in Values.

Would this happen in Germany ????????????????

[DavidM]

Thinking aloud here - could all the S54 owners use Jon's letter as a template and send them into BMW GB - that way they may understand that this is more than one or two owners who are concerned

OK my letter is in the post - anyone else

[exdos]

Please feel free to copy my letter verbatim, the more folk that write and require and demand a sensible and honest reply, the better.

People power is a very potent force and is NOT to be ignored.

['MC' MarkC]

It will not be long before somebody from higher up the ladder takes notice, and takes appropriate action. Especially when they take a peek at this/other sites. It dosn't take a genius to deduce where the primary market for future M4s, Z4Ms, M6 etc comes from. To ignore/bullshit your way through it would undoubtably have a serious impact on all future BMW GB '///M' car sales. I suspect that it's just early days, and the corporate wheels are only just starting to roll in the right direction for this one.
You only have to look at BMW's comparitively very good history with this type of thing (although you could argue that that's in part due to groups like ours). Some of the horror stories I've heard in the past relating to Ren/Peug/Fat/Fod etc are truly jaw-dropping in the audacity. With some of these companies, use of the term 'Product Recall' must become punishable by death, once the vehicle is one day outside is warranty period (ok, so maybe that's a little strong, but you get my drift ).

I do wonder though, how many unsuspecting S50 owners have forked-out wads for the Vanos problem? It makes me angry when I hear of out-of-warranty owners' paying even one pound towards it; "We'll pay half of the cost for you Sir, as a gesture of goodwill." It is clearly a design fault, so even if they won't publicly acknowledge it, they should pay every penny when an ///M car comes in with it.

Phew. Rant over.

[ADD]

Hi all,

Today I spoke to the assistant service manager at the dealership I work for and asked him if he knew if the S54 engine M Roadsters need to have the con rod bearing sheels replace like the recall for E46 M3s.
He said if I get a chassis number, he could type it in to the computer and it should tell him if it needs the recall or not.

So if 3 people PM their chassis number for their S54 M Roadster, hopefully I will find out tomorrow if they need the recall or not.

Adam

[exdos]

As promised, here is the official reply from BMW (GB):
_________________________________________________________

BMW Customer Service
Tel:(01344)426565
Fax:(01344)480545
customer.service@bmw.co.uk

October 19, 2004

BMW - Z3 M Coupe - S54 Engine

Dear .....

Thank you for your letter dated October 4, 2004 regarding the BMW S54 engine. I am sorry this matter has caused you such concern and appreciate the opportunity to comment in this instance.

As you have correctly stated the S54 engine is fitted to both M3 and the M Coupe models, but with one significant difference, the power output. While the M3 delivers 343bhp, the M Coupe offers 321 bhp. This is achieved by an earlier limitation of engine revolutions and is necessary as a result of the M Coupes' smaller engine bay not being able to offer the same air intake and cooling capacity as the M3.

I can confirm that BMW has recently released a quality enhancement relating to the M3 S54 engine that involves the replacement of the con rod bearing shells. However due to the reduced engine speed of the M Coupe, our internal testing has confirmed that its engine is not susceptible to the bearing shell wear and consequently, is not necessary for the same action to be taken on M Coupe models. With that said, obviously it is impossible to predict the future and should any such difficulties arise when the car is outside of its warranty, BMW would obviously look upon repair costs as generously as possible.

In parting, I trust the information above has been of use to you and has helped to restore your confidence in our product. Should you have any further questions or comments please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

Yours sincerely,
Ewan Wilson
Customer Service Manager

_________________________________________________________


I think the reply deserves further comment and answers, so below is my written response to BMW (GB):

____________________________________________________________

T

Mr Ewan Wilson
Customer Service Manager
BMW (GB) Ltd
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell
Berkshire
RG12 8TA

22nd October 2004

Dear Mr Wilson,

Thank you for your letter of reply dated 19th October 2004. Although I understand the explanation that you have given why my M Coupe should not be affected by the problem that befalls the M3, from my participation on BMW car-related internet forums, I would suggest that what you say is not actually true, because there are 2 owners, at least, (1 M Coupe and 1 M Roadster), both of whom have both suffered the problem of bearing shell failure in their cars and needed replacement engines.

Although you suggest that the S54 engine, when fitted in a Z3 M variant, is protected from the inherent fault of con rod bearing shell failure by the “earlier limitation of engine revolutions” than when fitted in the M3, the fact that the failure has in fact happened to at least two Z3 M cars despite the “earlier limitation of engine revolutions”, as described above, shows that in practice the S54 engine, can, and does, suffer the problem of bearing shell failure. As such, the fact that at least 2 engines restricted in this way have already failed when fitted in Z3 M variant models, clearly contradicts the findings of your “internal testing”, which must, in truth, make such findings inaccurate, and therefore unreliable, at best. Can you please tell me how many S54 Z3 M Coupes and Z3 M Roadsters have already required replacement engines or other remedial repairs in the UK under Manufacturer’s Warranty?

In your letter you state; "BMW would obviously look upon repair costs as generously as possible" for owners suffering engine failures outside of the Manufacturer's Warranty of 3 years. This is currently a "hot" topic on three separate BMW car-related internet forums. As I understand it, in the case of the M3, in the United States of America and also in Australia, BMW has increased the Manufacturer's Warranty for the S54 engine from 3 years to 6 years and/or 100,000 miles. An S54 engine is what it is, in whatever car it is installed and in any country in the world, and it has an acknowledged inherent weakness, period! It therefore seems most unfair that the owners of any of BMW's cars fitted with S54 engines in the United Kingdom are not placed on parity with the owners in the USA and Australia, by BMW simultaneously increasing the Manufacturer’s Warranty of the engine to 6 years and/or 100,000 miles, on a worldwide basis.

In the last paragraph of your letter you state that you hope that the information you have given me “has helped to restore your confidence in our product”, and in answer, I have to say in all honesty, that your answer has in fact decreased my confidence in your product because I consider that BMW is attempting to pull the wool over our eyes. I consider that BMW is treating owners of S54 Z3M Coupes and M Roadsters very badly and as though we are stupid. You say that BMW would "look upon repair costs as generously as possible" for owners of failed S54 engines out of Manufacturer's Warranty, to my mind, this phrase is far too vague and does not act as a legal definition as to precisely what action BMW will take in each and every instance of S54 engine failure. Your comment suggests that the repair costs would be subject to BMW’s discretion and to separate negotiation with each individual owner, and that BMW may limit its generosity to some form of percentage of the total repair costs. Since BMW has manufactured all cars fitted with S54 engines with parts which electronically manage the engine's output and also monitors various parameters of use and performance, which in turn, is used to instruct the owner of when servicing is necessary, then, in truth, provided the owner of a car with the S54 engine (all models) complies with the servicing schedule, then surely BMW, as the manufacturer, should demonstrate its faith in its own product, and "put its money where its mouth is" to UK owners by also increasing the Manufacturer's Warranty to parity with that now offered in the USA and Australia for the M3.

Further, as you are aware, the M Coupe and M Roadster, at least, are still tainted by the possibility of VANOS failures, therefore, it appears to most owners of BMW’s M cars, that the engines in their cars are somewhat blighted by either susceptibility to failure of con rod bearing shells and/or VANOS unit, and as such, we all live in dread of such occurrences when our cars are out of warranty. Obviously, as owners, we can never be in the same position as BMW as manufacturer, to know the precise weaknesses and frequency of defects occurring of BMW products. Therefore an owner’s confidence in BMW’s products can only be complete when BMW itself, shows 100% faith in both its product and the level of customer support that it will give after purchase, by voluntarily extending the Manufacturer’s Warranty on all M engines for UK owners, as I have suggested above.

I am aware that it is possible to take out an Extended Warranty after the Manufacturer’s 3 year Warranty, covering the engine, expires, and for the M Coupe that this costs around £510 per annum. I am also aware that if BMW (GB) increased the Manufacturer’s Warranty for the S54 engine in all its M cars to 6 years and/or 100,000 miles, then the annual cost of the Extended Warranty would have to be considerably reduced and that BMW would have to absorb an additional cost in replacing and repairing defective engines which would otherwise be covered by the Extended Warranty. However, in view of the fact that BMW has already received considerable sums of money for each and every M car sold, then it appears only equitable to me, as one of the owners having already spent heavily in a BMW product, that my expenditure has been made on a long-lasting and durable product fit for the purpose intended.

I have taken the trouble to write this letter from the customer’s point of view in the hope that BMW (GB) sees this as very constructive and fair criticism from which, in the long term, both customers and manufacturer will benefit. Surely, it is far easier for BMW to keep existing owners loyal to the brand, thereby encouraging repeat future custom, by treating us all the same, in all corners of the world, rather than alienating a large and significant group in the UK by treating us as second-class customers?

I would appreciate your comments. Again, it is my intention to post this letter and your reply on BMW car-related internet forums.

Finally, as a point of correction, BMW claims that the S54 engine fitted to the M Coupe and M Roadster produces 325 bhp and not 321 bhp as you state.

Many thanks.

Yours sincerely,

etc

[Giles]

However due to the reduced engine speed of the M Coupe, our internal testing has confirmed that its engine is not susceptible to the bearing shell wear and consequently, is not necessary for the same action to be taken on M Coupe models.

Er - as I speak from personal experience my comment here would be "utter bollocks" !!
(I realise they are strictly speaking referring to the M Coupe, but as we all know the M Roadster shares exactly the same engine specifics as the Coupe, and in any case PhilT has had an engine replacement in his Coupe due to shell wear.)

Feel free to tell them about Charlotte, I will dig out her chassis number should it be required.

[DavidM]

Tsk - if we are pulling his letter down - point out that the S54 does not have 321bhp - it has 325

[Giles]

Tsk - if we are pulling his letter down - point out that the S54 does not have 321bhp - it has 325

Which actually David is quite a significant point as the two engines are quite different and this is the whole bloomin' point

Clearly he doesn't really have a grasp of the facts or the issue - what a surprise

[DavidM]

Clearly he doesn't really have a grasp of the facts or the issue - what a surprise

He works for BMW in their fantablytastic customer services department - you expected someone with an understanding - oh no Giles, you are sadly mistaken

[ADD]

Hi all,

Looks like the answer has already been answer.

Anyway, I gave the assistant service manager a S54 M Roadster chassis number and he told me that there isn’t a recall for them.

Adam

[exdos]

However due to the reduced engine speed of the M Coupe, our internal testing has confirmed that its engine is not susceptible to the bearing shell wear and consequently, is not necessary for the same action to be taken on M Coupe models.

Er - as I speak from personal experience my comment here would be "utter bollocks" !!
(I realise they are strictly speaking referring to the M Coupe, but as we all know the M Roadster shares exactly the same engine specifics as the Coupe, and in any case PhilT has had an engine replacement in his Coupe due to shell wear.)

Feel free to tell them about Charlotte, I will dig out her chassis number should it be required.

Can you refer me to the thread about Charlotte's problem and give me the VIN of her car and I'll include a reference to it. I'd be grateful if any others who have suffered Engine failures would also give me their VINs and tell me what problem they had.

TIA

[Giles]

John you have PM

[exdos]

In the light of comments made on this and the other forums, I have now modified the reply that I am now going to post to BMW (GB). I have therefore edited my posting of 20th October to the final version as sent.
Of course I'll post the reply when/if received.

[exdos]

I got the reply to my last letter to BMW today, and the transcript is below. I read the response as “f**k off, we don’t care”.

If this is to go anywhere, then it needs as many individuals as possible to write to BMW (GB) to show them that there’s more than just one person who feels strongly about this.

________________________________________________________

BMW Customer Service
(01344)426565
(01344)480545
customer.service@bmw.co.uk
October 25, 2004

S54 Engine


Dear ......

Thank you for your further letter dated October 22, 2004. 1 am sorry you feel that the contents of my previous letter had served to "decrease your confidence" rather than having the desired, opposite effect.

I note that in the final paragraph of the second page, you acknowledge that only BMW can know the precise weakness and frequency of defects, it was exactly for this reason that in writing my previous letter, I had taken account of factual information (apart from the actual bhp - apologies) provided by colleagues within our Technical Department surrounding the reason for failure on M3 and not on M Coupe or roadster.

Your findings that at least two M Coupe/Roadsters have been affected by this problem is naturally of concern, but as you rightly suggest, the engine is almost identical to that fitted in M3 models. As I am sure you will appreciate, two cars forms a very small percentage of cars on the road today and it it for this reason that, unlike M3 models where most cars are affected, BMW Great Britain will deal with any cases that may arise on a case by case basis. As with any manufacturer of any product, once the car has reached the expiry of any applicable warranty, the decision as to whether to contribute towards the cost of any failure rests with the manufacturer, however, we always try to view this as generously as possible. It should be noted that any decision taken by BMW North America and BMW Australia to "extend the Manufacturers Warranty" is a local rather than a global decision and is actually only a formalising of goodwill parameters rather than an actual extension of the warranty.

Your response also refers to the failure of the VANOS system on M3 cars. It must be noted that this is completely unrelated to the con-rod bearings issue, and I believe it only serves to confuse the situation to associate them. However, a failure of any component in a BMW car is naturally regrettable and it is for this reason that we offer, and recommend that, BMW owners protect themselves with an extended warranty, This provides piece of mind that any failure of the car would not impact the owner financially. As regards the cost of the extended warranty, I can assure you that they are based on a number of factors and are not impacted directly by the one specific issue. If this were correct, the costs of warranty would fluctuate wildly, which clearly isn't the case.

In conclusion, I am grateful for your constructive thoughts but hope that you will also understand that as a manufacturer of a product, it is impossible for us to warrant that product indefinitely. At some point, the owner must become liable for the costs of repairs. Naturally, I hope that you will never find yourself in this situation but can assure you that, as per my previous letter and alongside other owners of M Coupes and Roadsters, we will look as favourably as possible should this unlikeliest of situations arise.

Yours sincerely

Ewan Wilson
Customer Service Manager

[DavidM]

I have yet to recieve a reply

[mihart]

This guy Ewan Wilson has been to university and gained a degree in b******t, that's why BM have employed him.
I have checked with both my current servicing stealer and the stealer that I bought the car from and both insist that it is not on any list, but I still don't trust what I am being told. Do I care and does this take any of the fun out of motoring - no because I am lucky enough still to have an extended warranty in place, however I do feel for those Guys who are out of warrant and potentially may be being dumped on.
Is there any way that official representation can be made with the weight of the whole car club behind it.

Mike - S54 Coupe - Tunbridge Wells

[DavidM]

Just sent a copy of the letter to Jim O'Donnell - he is the MD of BMW GB

The CarClub letter would be a good idea - I would think - or even one from the ZRegister - as this is a Z specific issue - the M3s have been dealt with