interest in fiberglass parts?
interest in fiberglass parts?
Hello,
As the first fiberglass body panels for my racing Z3 are coming out of the moulds, I was thinking:
Is there interest of other people in fiberglass panels?
For racing/trackday'ers, single lined would be OK.
For people wanting really good quality and strength, I am planning on doing double layered parts (so the outer layer + the inner layer).
Example of an inner layer bonnet from a dutch seller:
http://www.rickvandenbosch.nl/bmwz3.html
No rust issues EVER with fiberglass.
Would people on this forum be interested in such parts?
Sent me a message.
Regards, Koen
As the first fiberglass body panels for my racing Z3 are coming out of the moulds, I was thinking:
Is there interest of other people in fiberglass panels?
For racing/trackday'ers, single lined would be OK.
For people wanting really good quality and strength, I am planning on doing double layered parts (so the outer layer + the inner layer).
Example of an inner layer bonnet from a dutch seller:
http://www.rickvandenbosch.nl/bmwz3.html
No rust issues EVER with fiberglass.
Would people on this forum be interested in such parts?
Sent me a message.
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Interesting... For larger panels, e.g. bonnet, I suppose the weight saving would be significant.
On R.V.Bosch website the weight of fiberglass bonnet is probably wrong, as it says 1.2kg for bonnet. Sounds way too low!
It'd be nice to know how much Z3's body panels weigh... I wonder if anyone's ever scaled all of them?
On R.V.Bosch website the weight of fiberglass bonnet is probably wrong, as it says 1.2kg for bonnet. Sounds way too low!
It'd be nice to know how much Z3's body panels weigh... I wonder if anyone's ever scaled all of them?
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
On some websites you can find replacement panels for the bonnet, boot and the outer door skins.
But I haven't found the rest anywhere.
Correct that the weight for the bonnet is probably wrong on that website.
Not only the weight saving is significant.
It's also more easy to repair than metalwork.
And last but not least, no rust on fiberglass.
A lot of people don't know this, you can make fiberglass as strong as metal (and still be lighter than metal).
If this statement would not be true, race cars and super cars would still be made from metal...but they make them from fiberglass or Carbon or Kevlar (btw Kevlar is only a brandname for 1 kind of fiber).
The difference between fiberglass and carbon is only an extra weight saving factor (if treated the correct way - which most aftermarket manufacturers don't do).
Most "aftermarket carbon stuff" is not low temperature backed while under pressure as done by for example parts for the Pagani Zonda.
Regards, Koen
But I haven't found the rest anywhere.
Correct that the weight for the bonnet is probably wrong on that website.
Not only the weight saving is significant.
It's also more easy to repair than metalwork.
And last but not least, no rust on fiberglass.
A lot of people don't know this, you can make fiberglass as strong as metal (and still be lighter than metal).
If this statement would not be true, race cars and super cars would still be made from metal...but they make them from fiberglass or Carbon or Kevlar (btw Kevlar is only a brandname for 1 kind of fiber).
The difference between fiberglass and carbon is only an extra weight saving factor (if treated the correct way - which most aftermarket manufacturers don't do).
Most "aftermarket carbon stuff" is not low temperature backed while under pressure as done by for example parts for the Pagani Zonda.
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
About the weight saving:
On 1 headlight, I save 1,5 kg.
And the original is only in plastic, not in metal.
Keep in mind, the headlight is only 30cm wide by 10 cm high by 15-20 cm in depth.
If I remember correctly, Matt - racing his Z3 - cut out the inner skin of his doors, saving 7 Kg each (by cutting only a small part out).
So what is the total weight of a door...25 Kg?
Everyone that has ever driven a Lotus, Caterham, Westfield or anything like that knows that weight is key to success in handling.
I'll weigh the original panels and my fiberglass parts at some point and make a comparison.
Regards, Koen
On 1 headlight, I save 1,5 kg.
And the original is only in plastic, not in metal.
Keep in mind, the headlight is only 30cm wide by 10 cm high by 15-20 cm in depth.
If I remember correctly, Matt - racing his Z3 - cut out the inner skin of his doors, saving 7 Kg each (by cutting only a small part out).
So what is the total weight of a door...25 Kg?
Everyone that has ever driven a Lotus, Caterham, Westfield or anything like that knows that weight is key to success in handling.
I'll weigh the original panels and my fiberglass parts at some point and make a comparison.
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
How would you ship large parts like the bonnet to the UK and at what cost.
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Andover would be a nice drive to do
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Don't forget to mention cons. I believe fiberglass made by you is not as strong as metal. Race cars have roll cages, supercars use carbon (not fiberglass). Fiberglass body panels are not very safe in case of accident. Even ABS bumper is usually better because it is more flexible than fiberglass one.Stormy_be wrote: A lot of people don't know this, you can make fiberglass as strong as metal (and still be lighter than metal).
If this statement would not be true, race cars and super cars would still be made from metal...but they make them from fiberglass or Carbon or Kevlar.
But it's always some compromise between weight, safety and low price. You can get any two of three.
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
The strength of fiberglass is something a lot of people don't get and were there are a lot of misunderstandings.deni2s wrote:Don't forget to mention cons. I believe fiberglass made by you is not as strong as metal. Race cars have roll cages, supercars use carbon (not fiberglass). Fiberglass body panels are not very safe in case of accident. Even ABS bumper is usually better because it is more flexible than fiberglass one.Stormy_be wrote: A lot of people don't know this, you can make fiberglass as strong as metal (and still be lighter than metal).
If this statement would not be true, race cars and super cars would still be made from metal...but they make them from fiberglass or Carbon or Kevlar.
But it's always some compromise between weight, safety and low price. You can get any two of three.
Just searching on the web for a couple of minutes, I found this video (as images say more then any words).
Most people will not believe the strength fiberglass can have:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhkeW4Wh4A
I will let everyone for himself make up his mind about the strength of fiberglass.
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
My dad's tvr sent through a fence and wood was impaled into the side. That will not happen with steel
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Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Fiberglass will break under heavy impact. That is correct.mnbrennan wrote:My dad's tvr sent through a fence and wood was impaled into the side. That will not happen with steel
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Steel will wrap itself around you.
This weekend, here in Belgium, there has a car with 7 young people that ran into a lorry.
I don't want to tell anything about the accident itself (apparently they were speeding and 7 people in a E36...with 1 person in the closed boot)...ehm.
But apparently people wanted to help the people inside, but the were burned alive.
Something I wouldn't wish anyone (inside or bystander).
What I want to say is that both have pro's and con's.
But I wouldn't say that one is stronger than the other.
They just have different characteristics.
But in the end that was not my initial question.
My question was:
"Is there interest of other people in fiberglass panels?"
Regards, Koen
- BladeRunner919
- Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
- Posts: 2225
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
That video is not really proof of anything (except that you can 'prove' anything by googling). Firstly, the boat isn't braced against anything, so it moves when hit - if it was rigidly held more of the force would retained in the structure of the fibreglass. Secondly, he's not exactly hitting it very hard - sure, I wouldn't want to be hit in the face like that, but it's not really representative of a car crash. Thirdly, you have absolutely no idea how thick the fibreglass is. Fourthly, a 'ridge' shape, like the angle of the boat is stronger that a flat sheet.Stormy_be wrote:
The strength of fiberglass is something a lot of people don't get and were there are a lot of misunderstandings.
Just searching on the web for a couple of minutes, I found this video (as images say more then any words).
Most people will not believe the strength fiberglass can have:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhkeW4Wh4A
I will let everyone for himself make up his mind about the strength of fiberglass.
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Finder glass side sills would be interesting as they are only cosmetic and rust. But needs to be cheap. Have you thought of side sills?
Maybe if they were like the sought after aero sills they could be more valuable.
Maybe if they were like the sought after aero sills they could be more valuable.
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
I didn't know you there are multiple shapes of Z3's.BladeRunner919 wrote:That video is not really proof of anything (except that you can 'prove' anything by googling). Firstly, the boat isn't braced against anything, so it moves when hit - if it was rigidly held more of the force would retained in the structure of the fibreglass. Secondly, he's not exactly hitting it very hard - sure, I wouldn't want to be hit in the face like that, but it's not really representative of a car crash. Thirdly, you have absolutely no idea how thick the fibreglass is. Fourthly, a 'ridge' shape, like the angle of the boat is stronger that a flat sheet.Stormy_be wrote:
The strength of fiberglass is something a lot of people don't get and were there are a lot of misunderstandings.
Just searching on the web for a couple of minutes, I found this video (as images say more then any words).
Most people will not believe the strength fiberglass can have:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhkeW4Wh4A
I will let everyone for himself make up his mind about the strength of fiberglass.
Regards, Koen
Mine is not a flat sheet.
Don't forget that recent cars like Aston Martin are fiberglass...suppose it's no good either then?
But hey, everyone his opinion.
Apparently, none of you want fiberglass.
That is your good right.
But telling fiberglass is no good (without knowing anything about how the pieces are made, without have seen the pieces, without knowing by whom they are made -with which knowledge-, in what circumstances, etc)...
(as said above " I believe fiberglass made by you is not as strong as metal.")
...then my opinion is that I have my doubts in respect to the narrow mindedness of some people.
Everyone can have his opinion (including me).
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Koen, I am with you on the strength - well made fiberglass is very solid stuff. Its properties are quite different to steel as it has high tensile and compressive strength, but when bent it will crack rather than bend as steel. The quality of the fiberglass determines how much force is required for it to crack when bent, of course, but high quality stuff requires quite a lot of force for it to give in.
TBH I am in no way an expert on composite materials, so my only references are google, wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiberglass) and a fiberglass engine lid on my 1987 MR2 Supercharger. The engine lid is quite heavy for a fiberglass part, but still lighter than steel equivalent - and it is SOLID. Double-layered, as what you suggested for the bonnet, quite thick layers. I assume it is not of the highest strength fiberglass, but still definitely solid enough for a car panel.
I have no doubt that well-made fiberglass panels would be a good and relatively light replacement for steel equivalents. The thin steel sheets won't give any additional crash protection, it's the much thicker (and heavier) steel structures inside the doors and elsewhere in the car that absorb the forces, so the sheet stuff could as well be replaced with lighter, stiffer and less-dent-prone fiberglass.
I don't plan on racing the Z3M, and the panels on my Z3M are solid with no rust, so the price-to-benefit ratio wouldn't be favourable enough to justify the costs and effort for me. However there are some people here who do race their zeds, and some might be interested anyway, just for the weight reduction, if the price is right. So I would say that keep on asking people here and other Z3 forums, maybe you'll raise enough interest (and awareness of the possible availability in the first place) for it to be worthwhile your effort!
All this being said, I would be interested in fiberglass panels, but only if you would make some affordable ones for a mk1 Toyota MR2.. Then I would be VERY interested. Front quarters, rear quarters, doors, trunk lid and a bonnet please!
TBH I am in no way an expert on composite materials, so my only references are google, wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiberglass) and a fiberglass engine lid on my 1987 MR2 Supercharger. The engine lid is quite heavy for a fiberglass part, but still lighter than steel equivalent - and it is SOLID. Double-layered, as what you suggested for the bonnet, quite thick layers. I assume it is not of the highest strength fiberglass, but still definitely solid enough for a car panel.
I have no doubt that well-made fiberglass panels would be a good and relatively light replacement for steel equivalents. The thin steel sheets won't give any additional crash protection, it's the much thicker (and heavier) steel structures inside the doors and elsewhere in the car that absorb the forces, so the sheet stuff could as well be replaced with lighter, stiffer and less-dent-prone fiberglass.
I don't plan on racing the Z3M, and the panels on my Z3M are solid with no rust, so the price-to-benefit ratio wouldn't be favourable enough to justify the costs and effort for me. However there are some people here who do race their zeds, and some might be interested anyway, just for the weight reduction, if the price is right. So I would say that keep on asking people here and other Z3 forums, maybe you'll raise enough interest (and awareness of the possible availability in the first place) for it to be worthwhile your effort!
All this being said, I would be interested in fiberglass panels, but only if you would make some affordable ones for a mk1 Toyota MR2.. Then I would be VERY interested. Front quarters, rear quarters, doors, trunk lid and a bonnet please!
- BladeRunner919
- Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
- Posts: 2225
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Stormy_be wrote:
I didn't know you there are multiple shapes of Z3's.
Mine is not a flat sheet.
Don't forget that recent cars like Aston Martin are fiberglass...suppose it's no good either then?
But hey, everyone his opinion.
Apparently, none of you want fiberglass.
That is your good right.
But telling fiberglass is no good (without knowing anything about how the pieces are made, without have seen the pieces, without knowing by whom they are made -with which knowledge-, in what circumstances, etc)...
(as said above " I believe fiberglass made by you is not as strong as metal.")
...then my opinion is that I have my doubts in respect to the narrow mindedness of some people.
Everyone can have his opinion (including me).
Regards, Koen
I was merely pointing out that the video proves nothing. I was making no comment on the use of fibreglass as a material, nor making any comment on your work or the validity of your opinion. There's no point posing on a forum then getting all worked up over a simple comment.
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
What type of fibreglass are you planning to use? Properties vary greatly. I have a bonnet hanging in my garage and its very heavy I can hardly lift it so a lightweight replacement would make a big difference to overall weight. With a glass version people need to see quality of manufacture, fit, weight and cost including shipping before committing.
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
BTW: If you would make high quality but affordable replicas of the Hamann hardtop, they would sell like hot cakes! The original is silly money, so 95% of the people who would want one, won't. I am one of those people.
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=37036
It's a bit more than just fiberglass obviously (seals, trim, rear window etc), and you'd need to get your hands on a genuine article to copy it, which might not be easy as there really aren't that many around...
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=37036
It's a bit more than just fiberglass obviously (seals, trim, rear window etc), and you'd need to get your hands on a genuine article to copy it, which might not be easy as there really aren't that many around...
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
As I know you can still buy hamann hardtop officially, they are not NLA.janijoeli wrote:BTW: If you would make high quality but affordable replicas of the Hamann hardtop, they would sell like hot cakes!
you'd need to get your hands on a genuine article to copy it, which might not be easy as there really aren't that many around...
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
You can, and they are silly money. Well, silly money as in you can get a pretty nice complete zed for the same money... AFAIK they come with just a basecoat as well, so the price of a professional paintjob needs to be factored into the total. I think one will be looking at around £2k for the hardtop plus whatever a paintjob costs.
This makes them very rare, and also hard to find (or rather hard to find anyone kind enough to lend their genuine article for copying). Of course one could just buy one and copy it, but it is a pretty hefty initial investment, unless the plan is to make more than just a handful of replicas, or to sell them at near genuine article price.
Of course I would be in favour of someone getting their hands on one (either borrowing or buying) and then making a lot of affordable replicas..
All this being said, I'm sure Hamann wouldn't be too happy about someone mass-manufacturing cheap knock-offs of their product.
This makes them very rare, and also hard to find (or rather hard to find anyone kind enough to lend their genuine article for copying). Of course one could just buy one and copy it, but it is a pretty hefty initial investment, unless the plan is to make more than just a handful of replicas, or to sell them at near genuine article price.
Of course I would be in favour of someone getting their hands on one (either borrowing or buying) and then making a lot of affordable replicas..
All this being said, I'm sure Hamann wouldn't be too happy about someone mass-manufacturing cheap knock-offs of their product.
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
I understand that a lot more aspects need to be clear and need to fall into place for a commitment of people.Deano1712 wrote:What type of fibreglass are you planning to use? Properties vary greatly. I have a bonnet hanging in my garage and its very heavy I can hardly lift it so a lightweight replacement would make a big difference to overall weight. With a glass version people need to see quality of manufacture, fit, weight and cost including shipping before committing.
It's the interest of people that I was trying to measure.
I have already made moulds of some of the parts (moulds that will need redoing as the parts will need to be reshaped for what I intend to do with them).
I use different grades and weaves of fiberglass depending on the part.
But also one of the aspects is the number of produced pieces.
As a mould that will need to be able to produce 50 pieces, needs to be of higher quality than one to make 3 pieces.
I'm working together with people that have 40 years of experience in composite boat building (interior and exterior).
They have dozens of types of composites (weights, weaves and compositions) and are actually a wholesale trader for composites.
I'm lucky they are willing to supply me with small quantities if I would need something.
I've been using fiberglass for some time now, but not 40 years. They have buckets full of experience.
For some special things that I have never dealt with, they are helpful in choosing the perfect weave and weight, etc for the job.
Regards,
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
To make a mould of the inner skin of the boot lid, I separated the two today.
I know the double skin is the reason of the strength in the complete panel.
But I was still a bit shocked to see how much flex there is in the outer panel.
The inner panel is thinner than the outer. But because it has all the curves and shapes, this inner skin is quiet strong.
And the two are not welded together either ... they are glued together
I made a small movie of me shaking the outer panel...there is no strength in that at all:
http://users.skynet.be/fb085082/kde/outer_skin.mp4
Inner_skin:
Regards, Koen
I know the double skin is the reason of the strength in the complete panel.
But I was still a bit shocked to see how much flex there is in the outer panel.
The inner panel is thinner than the outer. But because it has all the curves and shapes, this inner skin is quiet strong.
And the two are not welded together either ... they are glued together
I made a small movie of me shaking the outer panel...there is no strength in that at all:
http://users.skynet.be/fb085082/kde/outer_skin.mp4
Inner_skin:
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Released the mould for the inner skin this morning.
Very strong and stiff...Looking good.
Outer skin (done before):
Next up are moulds for the side skirts...as someone mentioned, they do rust with most of our cars.
And for the people in any doubt of the fiberglass strength, the car's strength is not in the side skirts at all.
Regards, Koen
Very strong and stiff...Looking good.
Outer skin (done before):
Next up are moulds for the side skirts...as someone mentioned, they do rust with most of our cars.
And for the people in any doubt of the fiberglass strength, the car's strength is not in the side skirts at all.
Regards, Koen
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
If you are moulding skirts can you get some aero skirts to mould? They are nice but rare.
Used normal sills are easy to get hold of second hand now in UK but new fiberglass aero sills would be interesting...
Used normal sills are easy to get hold of second hand now in UK but new fiberglass aero sills would be interesting...
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
I suppose you are right. It would be nice to do it on aero skirts.Dino D wrote:If you are moulding skirts can you get some aero skirts to mould? They are nice but rare.
Used normal sills are easy to get hold of second hand now in UK but new fiberglass aero sills would be interesting...
But I don't have aero skirts, so I can't create duplicates.
You can get 2nd hand standard skirts, right again.
But I believe someone on this forum had bought a pair 2nd hand side skirts, got them sand blasted to be able to repaint them, and they where shot too....so is a 2nd hand pair a good option? will they be less corroded (visible or not)?
Everyone has to make that choice for him/her-self.
Koen
- marcusplowman
- Joined: Sat 22 May, 2010 20:34
- Posts: 458
- Location: Belfast
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
Personally speaking...and from previous experience on various cars in the past...I will never by any aftermarket fiberglass parts or kit ever again to a road car...not worth the hassle of trying to fit correctly and usually the finish is not great either. If you want to save weight for track/race use where the car is purely functional rather than aesthetic then thats a different story.
Re: interest in fiberglass parts?
As has been said before: it all depends on what you want to achieve and what you are willing to do to get there
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