Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

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ARoosterinaRoadster
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Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

:idea: Hi to you all out there.
Please do not shout and scream at me BUT has anyone carried out or does anyone know of a conversion that has been carried out on a Z3 using the 2ltr Auto Diesel unit from the 3series or from a crashed Rover 75 2.0ltr with the BMW unit that was used ?
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
Rafolian
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Rafolian »

Would have to be from the 3 series because as far as I am aware the Rover is front wheel drive?
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

Rafolian wrote:Would have to be from the 3 series because as far as I am aware the Rover is front wheel drive?
Hi Rafolian. Yes,you are absolutely correct - the Rover 75 is indeed front wheel drive. I had overlooked that small detail.

Not being familiar with the 3series - does the 2.0ltr auto come as a turbo injected diesel unit or just an ordinary non turbo diesel?
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

It is turbo.

But why would you want to do it?


I had an E46 320d touring, which is the engine you are talking about, and it was auto.
I used to average 33mpg in that, and round town it was down to around 26mpg, on a very steady run it would get 38 maybe 39mpg, only once saw 40 while in Scotland for around 6 miles and then it dropped again.

My 2.8i Z3 is averaging 29mpg, even round town it is still 26 mpg and I have seen 40 on a run quite easily.

The diesel sounds horrible, doesn't drive any where near as nicely and won't save you any money running it that you will notice.


So again, why would you want to do it?

Genuinely interested.
Rafolian
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Rafolian »

Totally agree on that one, why would anyone want a diesel sports car?
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

gIzzE wrote:It is turbo.

But why would you want to do it?


I had an E46 320d touring, which is the engine you are talking about, and it was auto.
I used to average 33mpg in that, and round town it was down to around 26mpg, on a very steady run it would get 38 maybe 39mpg, only once saw 40 while in Scotland for around 6 miles and then it dropped again.

My 2.8i Z3 is averaging 29mpg, even round town it is still 26 mpg and I have seen 40 on a run quite easily.

The diesel sounds horrible, doesn't drive any where near as nicely and won't save you any money running it that you will notice.


So again, why would you want to do it?

Genuinely interested.

Hi to gizzE & Rafolian. There was a notion that there was going to be a diesel powered Z4 but the lid was put on it by BMW but I believe that AC Schnitzer produced a diesel powered Z4.
Some years ago there was a kitcar (Flying Coffin type) that was powered by a turbo charged Ford diesel unit but with a manual gearbox that went like absolute stink and was the choice of newly passed younger drivers that no insurance history and massive quotations to start collating some.
I also think from memory that there was a racing class similar to Formula Ford that started using them - on the basis of all singing off of the same hymn sheet and the winning result was down entirely to driver skill.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

So again, why would you want to do it? :D
spurs fan in a coupe
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by spurs fan in a coupe »

The only company who do a diesel sports car for mass market seems to be Audi

2.0 TT TDi

4WD

0-62 7.6s

53.3 mpg combined

I'd love one, they look good and great figures on paper.

I'm surprised BMW haven't dabbled yet
we expres: " He did hear the bells ringing, but doesnt know where where the clapper hangs".
Smartbear
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Smartbear »

Noooo! Queen Boudiccas chariot was never pulled by elephants :wink:
A sports car needs a petrol engine the same as toast needs butter!
gookah
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gookah »

diesel in a convertible will be like being parked next to an old bread van every time you pull up.
get a gas conversion if you want to save fuel.
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I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

gIzzE wrote:So again, why would you want to do it? :D
Hi gizzE. Who said that I wanted to do it ? I certainly didn't - I only asked if it had been done.
If owners of Z3's or people that might desire one can buy or have an insurance uneconomical repair and put a new glass fibre jacket onto a Z3 skeleton - then what is wrong (theoretically) with an engine transplant from a known and otherwise reliable source albeit a diesel engine/gearbox unit.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

gookah wrote:diesel in a convertible will be like being parked next to an old bread van every time you pull up.
get a gas conversion if you want to save fuel.
Hi gookah. I am not angling to save fuel. My 2.0ltr Auto Z3 is an old man's toy. My other wheels are a Volvo V70 D5 SE Geartronic. It is only a snip behind the V70 T5 CD Auto that I sold Christmas 2013.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
Del
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Del »

Interesting technical question - I've never seen a BMW internet thread about somebody who has done it. I'd be interested to see a project just out of curiosity. Only a guess - but would it be likely that you would be limited to diesel engines from the contemporary E36 range (similar loom and other mechanicals etc) and as far as I know they were rather basic, older style diesel engines - reliable but slow, heavy and noisy - don't recall them being popular at the time, not like the common rail/turbo diesels today. As I recall, the French seemed to dominate the diesel engine scene back in the 1990s :D
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pingu
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by pingu »

There are some luddites on this site, aren't there?

Modern diesels are better than petrol in almost every way. More torque, very similar power (but at lower revs), and much better fuel economy.

http://www.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/new-vehicles ... gines.html Just compare the 335 petrol and diesel.

You can't hear the noise when you are on the move as they are so well insulated.

The Z3 is probably too old a car to fit one of the excellent twin-turbo 335 diesel engines to, but the new shape Z4 could probably take one without too much trouble.

Re the OP, I've not heard of it having been done, but I would think that any E36 engine would fit in a Z3 without having to cut bulkheads, etc. E46 engines will also probably fit, but anything newer would probably need body modifications.

Personally, I'd go for LPG before diesel in a Z3 - it would be much easier.
Pingu
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

pingu wrote:There are some luddites on this site, aren't there?

Modern diesels are better than petrol in almost every way. More torque, very similar power (but at lower revs), and much better fuel economy.

Haha, not at all.

But......you are wrong. :D


I have owned a few nice deisels, so called best of the best diesels. And so far they have all disappointed.

The Mercedes 350cdi, the BMW 35d, Audis 3.0tdi.

All of them have fallen short in enjoyment to drive, the refinement (amazing how much they have improved but still so far behind the petrol equivalent) and the main annoyance was economy.


My 535d was shockingly bad, 26mpg average over 12 month and nearly 40,000 miles, with it managing a best of 36mph sat at 70mph on the Autoroute, same on UK motorways was 34mpg.
I then swapped for a 335i which averaged 1mpg more and would see 39mpg doing the same on UK motorways.

My E350cdi averaged 33mpg which is better, but struggled to get to 40mph on a steady cruise and would see as low as 22mpg around town from a cold start.
The E320 petrol it replaced averaged 28mpg and would see 25mpg doing the same cold start commute.

A6 3.0tdi, I had this for a couple of weeks after 18 months in the 3.2fsi petrol version, both avants, both quattro and both autos, the 3.2 petrol used to get 26mpg on the commute, the diesel used to get 24mpg. On a long run the diesel started to do better, 38mpg compared with 36mpg, but it used to take 26miles for the diesel to start to gain on the petrol MPG wise on my trek down the M11. It took that long for it to get up to proper temperature and for the diesel to start being economical.


Then you have the power delivery, short bursts or 2000 revs where anything happened, so you have to have an auto otherwise it gets incredibly dull incredibly quickly, but so does that delivery.
The 335i was also turbo'd and I do think when we discuss petrol vs diesel we are really discussing NA vs FI, and to be fair, the 335i was only slightly more fun than the 535d in the way it delivered the power, it actually felt a bit like a big diesel, just a nicer soundtrack and more revs to play with, the fact you could hold it in 3rd between 30-75mph on twisty roads and it sounded lovely is not something you should underestimate if you enjoy driving. The 335d is swapping cogs all the time doing those same roads.


Now, I am not knocking diesels, I have just bought an X3 which is diesel, but the statement.....
pingu wrote: Modern diesels are better than petrol in almost every way. More torque, very similar power (but at lower revs), and much better fuel economy.
......is just so far from the truth.

I went with a 2 litre diesel on the X3, and I do get a genuine 40mpg average from it, and 50mpg on a run, the 3 litre is getting to the point where refinement is acceptable, and the power is nice, but it was showing 32 average and 42 on a run. If going diesel the only reason is to save money and you have to go for a smaller 4cyl to do that.

And even then, we forgot petrol has moved on considerably too.
Go for a small turbo'd 4cyl petrol and you will get good economy.
We looked at an Q3 last year.
They didn't have the Q3 as diesel and petrol as demo cars so we took the A3 sportback out to test the diesel vs petrol.

I first borrowed the 2.0tdi manual for a day and did my 90 mile commute, only difference is I went across Norwich as the dealer is the other side of the city, when I returned it was showing 48mpg.

The following Sunday I did the same in the 1.4tfsi petrol, the car was lighter, the clutch was nicer, the gearbox slicker and the whole thing was just better, so much so that I could have owned a manual one of those, where as the diesel was an effort and would have had to have been auto.
When I got back I checked the OBC and the mpg for the same 90 mile trip was.............48mpg.

The petrol was also £2400 cheaper to buy, and had the same residual at 36 months and 36k miles, this made the diesel £309 a month and the petrol £259 a month. The fuel was cheaper on the petrol by around 8% so the petrol was the nicer and cheaper option.


We are not comparing 318tds vs 318i for 20 years ago, it did make more sense then, same power and one got 55mpg the other got 25mpg.

Also, many go from an older 6cyl petrol that does 22mpg into a new 320d or similar doing 45mpg and that is their comparison.
You have to compare like with like.

Guy down the road just swapped his 535d for a 550i, he has gone from 34 average to 29mpg average, to say he is chuffed is an understatement.
He said even more impressive though is his run from Norwich to Bristol via Worcester and back via Stanstead, the 535d would show 38mpg the 550i is showing 36mpg.

I honestly believe that we will not have diesel passenger cars being made in 15 years time, petrol is going to get better and better where as diesel is not progressing. I used to get 55-60mpg average from my 1995 1.9tdi A4, the current car with all its efficient dynamics crap is not getting that.
As quickly as diesel is advancing the gains are being wiped out by regulations regarding emissions.

Diesel will be the expensive option and then let's see if people really by it because "I prefer the torque".
That is just to justify the purchase, if petrol was half the price of diesel would anyone really pay the extra? Of course not.


All imho of course. ;)
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

Hi again to you all out there. Whilst this is of my own doing and strictly speaking is off Z3 topic - it is nevertheless an interesting subject and point of debate.

Now a profound statement :-- unless all of you professors of motoring fuel economy are only doing physical fuel checks and brimming every time YOU CANNOT possibly spout fuel figures.
On-board computers are notoriously working in favour of the manufacturer of the vehicle to which it is fitted.

Filling to the brim on level ground and dividing the litres by 4.5461 is the only way to get an accurate and therefore a totally realistic reliable total of gallonage used. This is also only sufficiently accurate over constant decent mileages covered IE: 500miles - 1000miles and throughout the year not just on a whim and impulse.

My Volvo V70 D5 SE Geartronic regularly records fuel consumption figures that are as wildly inaccurate as 28% at worst and 15% at best. There are far to many variables to rely on on board computers.
Stop playing into the hands of the manufacturers - do manual checking and then decide whether the lying gas guzzler really does deserve your hard earn money.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
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pingu
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by pingu »

gIzzE wrote:
pingu wrote:There are some luddites on this site, aren't there?

Modern diesels are better than petrol in almost every way. More torque, very similar power (but at lower revs), and much better fuel economy.
Lots of stuff
Interesting how the quoted figures can be so far from the truth. I agree with rooster, but as you used OBCs for everything. I don't doubt the comparative numbers even if the actual numbers may be wrong.

Emissions regs and duty/tax rates are taking ALL the advantages out of owning a diesel. I have an old diesel and I'm only paying 65p per litre. There's no way I could do what I do on a new car :wink:

Other than as an engineering experiment, I don't know why anyone would want to put a diesel in a Z3. From an engineering point of view, anything is possible given the resources. If I were wanting to get more economy (pence per mile <>≠ miles per gallon if the fuel is cheap enough :wink: ) I would opt for an LPG conversion, but only if I were LPG registered and didn't have to pay labour.
Pingu
Joycey
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Joycey »

Interesting opinions.

This is something I'm doing while its winter. I have a donor car just doing some more homework on engines. I can't make my mind up on the engine (3.0 single turbo from the e46 or the 4 pot)

Also overcoming the torque figures through that rear subframe will need addressing.

other than that it's a relatively simple swap with engine mounts already lining up.

My progress is on the other fourm.

Lee
Del
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Del »

Audi have dominated Le Mans 24 hour endurance race for the past 10-years with diesel engine cars - not just this "wimpy quick few laps" like in F1 :D

http://www.audi.co.uk/audi-innovation/a ... 8-tdi.html
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pingu
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by pingu »

Joycey wrote:This is something I'm doing while its winter. I have a donor car just doing some more homework on engines. I can't make my mind up on the engine (3.0 single turbo from the e46 or the 4 pot)
Why?
Pingu
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

pingu wrote: Interesting how the quoted figures can be so far from the truth.

Problem is the combinedn extra urban figures are calculated with an engine up to temperature and with the car doing 31mph over 4.5 miles, accelerating to 70mph once, meaning extra urban and combined is taken from an average speed of 39mph.

Problem number 1 is a diesel takes around 10 miles or 10 minutes to get close to working temps and up to 25 miles and 25 minutes in winter. This throws the figures massively and makes combined hard to achieve for most let alone extra urban.
I know the 320d overfuels by as much as 40% from cold, as the temps rise the car reduces the fuel used. (this is why making sure your thermostats are working 100% is so important).

A petrol can be up to temp in a couple of miles or a couple of minutes.


Also, a car may do 80mpg extra urban on the test, my Aygo did, but sit at 80mph and it was struggling to hit 30mph.

So the test really tells us nothing other than what a car does cruising at 31mph, it isn't even a good comparison between cars.
I can gear a car to do well at 31mph, I could also gear it to do well at 80mph, but which figure goes in the sales brochure?
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

ARoosterinaRoadster wrote:Hi again to you all out there. Whilst this is of my own doing and strictly speaking is off Z3 topic - it is nevertheless an interesting subject and point of debate.

Now a profound statement :-- unless all of you professors of motoring fuel economy are only doing physical fuel checks and brimming every time YOU CANNOT possibly spout fuel figures.
On-board computers are notoriously working in favour of the manufacturer of the vehicle to which it is fitted.

Filling to the brim on level ground and dividing the litres by 4.5461 is the only way to get an accurate and therefore a totally realistic reliable total of gallonage used. This is also only sufficiently accurate over constant decent mileages covered IE: 500miles - 1000miles and throughout the year not just on a whim and impulse.

My Volvo V70 D5 SE Geartronic regularly records fuel consumption figures that are as wildly inaccurate as 28% at worst and 15% at best. There are far to many variables to rely on on board computers.
Stop playing into the hands of the manufacturers - do manual checking and then decide whether the lying gas guzzler really does deserve your hard earn money.

That goes without saying.

You can adjust the BMW OBC to get it almost bang on by the way.

I use Fuelly, so my figures are accurate.

On average most of my diesels have been out between 10-15% compared to the OBC, they are always a little generous, all my petrols have been pretty much dead on, my old E320 was actually under reading, used to say 27 and when calculated it was actually 28.

The worst one was my 2.5tdi Audi, that used to say close to 40MPG on the DIS, as Audi call it, and was only actually 32mpg when calculated!!



I tend to use the US official mpg figures now. Far more accurate. But remember to convert back to UK MPG chaps.

Take the Mercedes E250cdi.

US says 33 city and 50 highway.
UK says 47 urban and 65 extra urban.

Same car, just one set of figures are realistic and the other set are complete nonsense.
One owner will be pleased the other will be moaning that the car has been 'misold' or something.

The tests need to change now, they are getting further and further away from reality.
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

Hi again gizzE. My BMW Z3 2.0ltr Auto is a 2000 (W) one that does not have a kidology OBC and therefore all of my figures are factual and actual.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

ARoosterinaRoadster wrote:Hi again gizzE. My BMW Z3 2.0ltr Auto is a 2000 (W) one that does not have a kidology OBC and therefore all of my figures are factual and actual.

Hey?

Yeah I know. I was just replying to your comment saying that you need to calculate mpg properly, I just said yeah obviously.

I then explained how out some cars seem to be.
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

gIzzE wrote:
ARoosterinaRoadster wrote:Hi again gizzE. My BMW Z3 2.0ltr Auto is a 2000 (W) one that does not have a kidology OBC and therefore all of my figures are factual and actual.

Hey?

Yeah I know. I was just replying to your comment saying that you need to calculate mpg properly, I just said yeah obviously.

I then explained how out some cars seem to be.
Hi again gizzE. I am a little confused here with your bit about :-- I was just replying to your comment saying that you need to calculate mpg properly.
Do you mean you -as in me or you you mean you as in you in that I had stated that point.
I cannot recall actually using that expression - please enlighten me.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

ARoosterinaRoadster wrote:Hi again gizzE. I am a little confused here with your bit about :-- I was just replying to your comment saying that you need to calculate mpg properly.
Do you mean you -as in me or you you mean you as in you in that I had stated that point.
I cannot recall actually using that expression - please enlighten me.


I was replying to......
ARoosterinaRoadster wrote:
Now a profound statement :-- unless all of you professors of motoring fuel economy are only doing physical fuel checks and brimming every time YOU CANNOT possibly spout fuel figures.
On-board computers are notoriously working in favour of the manufacturer of the vehicle to which it is fitted.
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

gIzzE wrote:
ARoosterinaRoadster wrote:Hi again gizzE. I am a little confused here with your bit about :-- I was just replying to your comment saying that you need to calculate mpg properly.
Do you mean you -as in me or you you mean you as in you in that I had stated that point.
I cannot recall actually using that expression - please enlighten me.


I was replying to......
ARoosterinaRoadster wrote:
Now a profound statement :-- unless all of you professors of motoring fuel economy are only doing physical fuel checks and brimming every time YOU CANNOT possibly spout fuel figures.
On-board computers are notoriously working in favour of the manufacturer of the vehicle to which it is fitted.
Hi aain gizzE. As I have previously said - I did not actually use that statement albeit what I did suggest/infer was that unless figures are actually being manually calculated then there is no real accuracy and especially non at all in the OBC figures of the vehicles that have them fitted.
As a slight step aside - I would like to know the degree of accuracy of those that are fitted to the likes of Rolls Royce and Bentley cars along with those that are fitted to Range Rovers and other real gas guzzlers.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
gIzzE
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by gIzzE »

Jesus wept. :lol:

I know what you said, I quoted you.
I then just quoted you again.

You can't say you didn't say it.


All I said was I agree, unless you work it out manually you know **** all.
I then explained that I worked all my figures out manually.

I am agreeing with you.

I'm out, I can't take any more. :lol:
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Rafolian »

Jesus wept? He bawled his eyes out!!!!
Joycey
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Joycey »

pingu wrote:
Joycey wrote:This is something I'm doing while its winter. I have a donor car just doing some more homework on engines. I can't make my mind up on the engine (3.0 single turbo from the e46 or the 4 pot)
Why?
Because i can...
ARoosterinaRoadster
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by ARoosterinaRoadster »

hi gizzE & Rafolian. Now that we have got that cleared up and we all do agree that the OBC's work very much in favour of the manufacturer, then PLEASE don't forget the various Tax Collecting Governments around the world that also benefit from the motorists that drive around with their heads in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

The next stage of the realisation process is when all these gas guzzlers that were bought on the basis of being frugal machines carry on using masses of fuel that the governments are receiving less and less tax revenues from.

Add the impact of that to the numbers of people that are either totally without work or are on Zero Hours Contracts and not earning enough to contribute to the Tax Pot - what are they going to hit us with next ?

A possible contender is a Quango that will calculate the amount of fresh-air we take-in per 24hrs and tax us on that. That way even when we are asleep we are being fleeced of monies.
Happiness is a well kept Z3 and preferably running with the hood down - weather permitting.
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pingu
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by pingu »

Joycey wrote:
pingu wrote:
Joycey wrote:This is something I'm doing while its winter. I have a donor car just doing some more homework on engines. I can't make my mind up on the engine (3.0 single turbo from the e46 or the 4 pot)
Why?
Because i can...
So, it's an engineering challenge - now, that I can understand :D .

I'd really struggle to get my head around any other reason.
Pingu
peter2b
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Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by peter2b »

I miss my old 3.5ltr V8 Range Rover . OK I only did 16mpg/20 on a long run but cumphy like driving an old arm chair and it shifted
Peter2b
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BladeRunner919
Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
Posts: 2225

  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by BladeRunner919 »

peter2b wrote:I miss my old 3.5ltr V8 Range Rover . OK I only did 16mpg/20 on a long run but cumphy like driving an old arm chair and it shifted
Peter2b
That was good going - my 3.9 RR only does 13mpg on a run!
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c_w
Joined: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 16:50
Posts: 4032

  M roadster S50

Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by c_w »

No point fitting a 2.0TD engine, unless it's a twin turbo - they feel quite breathless and whist refined in their original home the 6cyl diesels sound much nicer and the 35d engine is phenomenal.
Z3Jeremy
Joined: Sun 23 Jun, 2013 08:40
Posts: 71

  Z3 roadster 1.9i

Re: Z3 2.0 ltr Diesel Auto.

Post by Z3Jeremy »

Couple of obsevations - if LPG was the way to go im sure Honda, Audi and BMW would be marketing them today, exactly..also if your chosen form of transport is either A. a fishing boat or B. a cement mixer, then yes go diesel!! Night all!
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