anyone know what it could be?

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spanwah
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anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

went to a really good bmw indie just to ask the question about oil consumption and back of car covered in black sooty/oily residue?
basically he had a quick look and pulled of a rubber bung which is split on the rear of the inlet manifold! he said this should be blocked???? well he found a rubber cap and fitted it WELL !!! it all went horribly wrong drove 100m it misfired and engine warning light came on( it was running perfectly before) went straight back hooked it up to computer ( misfiring on cyl 5/ 3 and vacuum reading(I think he said) on cycl5 was reading 10 instead of between -2 to 4 very strange he said) checked coils and plugs / then put it back with the split bung back on reset everything with computer and hey presto running sweet no warning lights! he was pissed as I only asked a question which turned into an hour feck about for him
he said I have an issue for sure and sort of aimed at the ccv system or pipes ive changed 2 pipes and ccv(bmw parts) recently but as usual book it in and pay thousands to sort it :head: anyone know if the pipe is supposed to be blocked etc.... anyone had this????

cheers
peter2b
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by peter2b »

I have a 2.2z3 when I get home I will have a look to see if I have one
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Brian4
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Brian4 »

Could you post some pics of where this bung is that was replaced/refitted. Sounds like vacuum hose or CCV breather hoses.
Did I understand that you have replaced the CCV valve and hoses?
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peter2b
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by peter2b »

just had a look the only rubber plug i can find on the inlet manifold is just behind the dip stick its about 1/2 dia and 1" long haven't tried to take it off but i could be a blanking plug for an inlet/ out let for some thing not fitted , a couple of years ago i had some thing like what you describe on a pinto engine i had topped up with oil but forgot to put the cap back on, a few miles on it was missing i could only keep going on hi revs, no tick over and run like a pig, i had to go 10 miles down the m40 before i could pull off, lifted the bonnet saw the cap was off put back on run like normal don't know why that should happen i can only think it was allowing too much air into the fume return(a take off pipe from the cam cover cap to the air inlet manifold)
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pingu
Joined: Fri 30 Apr, 2004 16:01
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by pingu »

If it's what I think, it is a common problem. The bung falls off and the engine re-calibrates itself to compensate for the extra air. I put a bolt in the end of the hose and secured it with a jubilee clip.

Is it in this area?...
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motco
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by motco »

peter2b wrote:just had a look the only rubber plug i can find on the inlet manifold is just behind the dip stick its about 1/2 dia and 1" long haven't tried to take it off but i could be a blanking plug for an inlet/ out let for some thing not fitted , a couple of years ago i had some thing like what you describe on a pinto engine i had topped up with oil but forgot to put the cap back on, a few miles on it was missing i could only keep going on hi revs, no tick over and run like a pig, i had to go 10 miles down the m40 before i could pull off, lifted the bonnet saw the cap was off put back on run like normal don't know why that should happen i can only think it was allowing too much air into the fume return(a take off pipe from the cam cover cap to the air inlet manifold)
peter2b
If your Pinto engine was still in the car it was originally intended for (Granada or Sierra I suspect), the (positive) crankcase venting system draws air in through the oil filler cap and consumes it, along with blow-by gases, in the combustion process. Leaving off the filler cap affects the fuel/air mixture by allowing too much extra air in, especially at idle and low revs. Only at high revs, when the 'proper' induction air is relatively massive, does the effect matter little. My Pinto, in my Westfield, is not positive venting and the oil cap makes no difference to running.

As I have a 2.2 Z3 I shall watch this with interest...
peter2b
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by peter2b »

hi , the engine was in a sierra ghia 2ltr efi that i used as a doner for my Robin Hood 2B plus, still going strong after 11 years in it :) doing a few winter repairs after my Scottish road trip last year 1400mls didn't miss a beat (i built it so i can fix it)
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

sorry guys about not replying as not had time to look , he said it should be blocked off but when he did it ran like shite which indicated to him a problem somewhere? as some stated if I did block it off to try it would then run like a sack off ~~~~ and then the engine warning light would come on and I have no means of resetting it? which means ill be stuck?? :head: I will take a photo and post it up !! I did replace the ccv and the top 2 pipes one going across the manifold and the one which goes to the top of the rocker! as the both snapped when trying to remove them! havnt touched the others, its a funny issue I have ! it has no smoke on startup ? if you floor it sometimes you may get a tiny bit of smoke normally the issue is after driving constant for a while then pull up say at a roundabout then accelerate it throws out a huge amount but its very intermittent?? I believe its like filling up somewhere then letting it go if you understand my meaning? if it was rings it be start up and constant ! valve stem seals itll probably do it on overrun etc... its a funny one! he was putting his money on the ccv system! im confused :head: :head: :head: :head: :head: :head:
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andy18n
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by andy18n »

This is just a guess so perhaps take it with a pinch of salt but if the ECU has recalibrated for the extra air intake, it might need an ECU reset to push it back to original factory settings once its blanked off again. I've not researched this concept on the Z3 but on modern tin tops its a case of disconnecting the battery for half an hour or so (making sure you have your radio code to hand before!) and reconnecting. I did this after replacing the MAF on our 2010 petrol turbo galaxy, and seemed to reset fine and re-learn.

Good luck.
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

andy18n wrote:This is just a guess so perhaps take it with a pinch of salt but if the ECU has recalibrated for the extra air intake, it might need an ECU reset to push it back to original factory settings once its blanked off again. I've not researched this concept on the Z3 but on modern tin tops its a case of disconnecting the battery for half an hour or so (making sure you have your radio code to hand before!) and reconnecting. I did this after replacing the MAF on our 2010 petrol turbo galaxy, and seemed to reset fine and re-learn.

Good luck.

when he blocked it off he reset everything I drove for 100m and it went haywire?????came back it was misfiring like nothing else? checked plugs coils put the split tube back on reset everything again ran fine :head: :head: :head: :head: :head: :head:
Vic-Z3
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Vic-Z3 »

I for one would like a pic of the part in question ............... please.
I guess you have the same engine as mine?

I have the 2.2i Sport Roadster M54B engine, very similar to this pic.
Image

Pingu has the M Roadster S50 engine according to his profile.
Cant see the part referred to in his post on my engine.
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Smartbear
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Smartbear »

The ccv system returns the condensed engine vapour back to the sump via the dipstick tube, I've read that this blocks easily & causes the return path of the oil to "back up" the pipe until it starts to be consumed by the inlet manifold drawing it into the engine. I would remove this pipe & attempt to blow through it....
Regards
spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Vic-Z3 wrote:I for one would like a pic of the part in question ............... please.
I guess you have the same engine as mine?

I have the 2.2i Sport Roadster M54B engine, very similar to this pic.
Image

Pingu has the M Roadster S50 engine according to his profile.
Cant see the part referred to in his post on my engine.

hi mate if you have a look where the dipstick is its right there on the manifold. need to find time to take a pic!
spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Smartbear wrote:The ccv system returns the condensed engine vapour back to the sump via the dipstick tube, I've read that this blocks easily & causes the return path of the oil to "back up" the pipe until it starts to be consumed by the inlet manifold drawing it into the engine. I would remove this pipe & attempt to blow through it....
Regards

yep blown it through with a air line but have been told the rubber pipe turns to mush and the vacuum closes the pipe?? I havnt changed this one as it is apart of the dipstick and requires the lot changing but may have to! :head: :head:
reality is I should have changed everything!
I agree something is going wrong within this ccv system the dipstick pipe is the only thing left unless the valve although new maybe fecked? for me oil is defo going into the inlet manifold from somewhere
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Vic-Z3 »

I shall have a look in the daylight ........ :thumb:
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

what do you think to this as a reason for what its doing?? driving along thinking about it today your thoughts please:

the pipe which is a blanking pipe at the back of the manifold (as ive explained is torn) makes the car run fine?(which it shouldn't its letting the car breathe) so if there would be no vacuum to open the ccv it stays shut so the oil has no where to go so eventually fill up and go into the manifold causing it to smoke every so often which the car deos? when it is blocked off the car runs like a sack off spanners ( it should be blocked apparently its a blanking plug) deos this mean that maybe the rubber pipe on the dipstick or the other pipe ive not fitted collapses(common fault over time) so the the ccv system isn't working properly so the vacuum builds up causing it to run like a set of spanners no free flowing system and maybe why it runs ok with split pipe????

could be aload of old ass but sounds plausible??? when I get time I will defo look into it? just seems odd what it is doing!

cheers you may take the piss if you wish :lol:
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

thought it would be full of knowledgeable people :roll:
gookah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by gookah »

spanwah wrote:thought it would be full of knowledgeable people :roll:
Have you changed and flushed the oil through? I read in your previous posts in July last year that it had been approximately 20,000 miles since your previous oil change.
I have to feel this is probably linked somewhere and something is still seriously gummed up and intermittently sticking.
We were also suggesting back then taking the plugs out and checking for oil on them which you hadn't got round too, Has this been done?
Have you taken the photos that the guys asked for above?
Suggest that you do that, before having a dig at the people on this site...


I would be giving it some serious oil changes and long runs between to try and clear out the engine first and hope its recoverable.
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

gookah wrote:
spanwah wrote:thought it would be full of knowledgeable people :roll:
Have you changed and flushed the oil through? I read in your previous posts in July last year that it had been approximately 20,000 miles since your previous oil change.
I have to feel this is probably linked somewhere and something is still seriously gummed up and intermittently sticking.
We were also suggesting back then taking the plugs out and checking for oil on them which you hadn't got round too, Has this been done?
Have you taken the photos that the guys asked for above?
Suggest that you do that, before having a dig at the people on this site...


I would be giving it some serious oil changes and long runs between to try and clear out the engine first and hope its recoverable.

firstly I aint having a dig at anyone on this site you read into that comment what you will like most forums out there been took the wrong way!!!!! I was asking because normally most people may have an answer! or experienced something similiar
the car uses about 1/2 a liter in 200 miles yet its a complete strange one , by checking the plugs all you are doing is narrowing down the cyclinder which you may feel the valve seals or bores / rings etc are fecking knackered but the symtons would be either smoke or deceleration/overrun/acceleration or startup etc.... it has none of these!!!! its every so often! the gummed up theory may be a good one but Ive put that much oil in its probably had 3 full oil changes :head: the car actually runs sweet ??unless you block the split pipe like it should be!! if its split there is no vacuum therefore the ccv isn't working I guess? causing oil to build up but if the pipe is blocked there is a problem on the ccv side because it runs like a sack of shite? like I said its only a theory and someone might know? but it aint passing emmissions and I reckon the cat must be fecked but nothing comes up on the dash and when it was put on the computer no faults appeared? love the car just annoying at the moment ! my next step is the top thin ccv pipe!

cheers
spanwah
gookah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by gookah »

As you seem to appreciate how wording can be misconstrued then you could word it more carefully, especially as you are after our help, and also use a smiley rather than a 'rolling eyes' emoticon.
Reading into the posts it seems like you still may have not done a flush and oil change, regular topping does not qualify as an oil change as the filter will still be blocked after 20,000 mile plus, also the thin clean oil is what will be dispersed from the engine before the sludge.
The reason I suggest taking out the spark plugs is to see if the oil loss is by it getting into a single cylinder via gumming up seals, or piston rings rather than being forced out the ECV route by crank case pressure via every cylinder, and to also give us a better chance of finding your fault.

It may be that we are not as knowledgeable on here, because we have not left our cars between oil changes long enough to have experienced this fault, (and thats not a dig, just a possible reason we haven't had this, but is a warning of the possible consequence) or it may be that people are seeing the replies already given, and that you seem to take no notice of their requests or discount them using your own knowledge anyway.

I wish you luck , but for that reason "I'm Out" :D
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Z3 1.9 Sport Progress Journal (Wifey's)

I have an element of 'M-styling' on my car, If that's a good enough reason for the manufacturers to adorn a 320 with the M badge, then its certainly a good enough reason for me..
spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

gookah wrote:As you seem to appreciate how wording can be misconstrued then you could word it more carefully, especially as you are after our help, and also use a smiley rather than a 'rolling eyes' emoticon.
Reading into the posts it seems like you still may have not done a flush and oil change, regular topping does not qualify as an oil change as the filter will still be blocked after 20,000 mile plus, also the thin clean oil is what will be dispersed from the engine before the sludge.
The reason I suggest taking out the spark plugs is to see if the oil loss is by it getting into a single cylinder via gumming up seals, or piston rings rather than being forced out the ECV route by crank case pressure via every cylinder, and to also give us a better chance of finding your fault.

It may be that we are not as knowledgeable on here, because we have not left our cars between oil changes long enough to have experienced this fault, (and thats not a dig, just a possible reason we haven't had this, but is a warning of the possible consequence) or it may be that people are seeing the replies already given, and that you seem to take no notice of their requests or discount them using your own knowledge anyway.

I wish you luck , but for that reason "I'm Out" :D

it still hurts doesn't it I can tell!!!!and that is a dig at me also!
so if offended anyone I apologise!
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

My experience of the CCV was a complete replacement.... I had a similar rough running scenario on my previous 2.8 '97 model. The plastic casing had split which allowed air to leak into the system. The split obviously made the rubber valve thingy inside redundant. Perhaps a proper inspection would be useful...ie. take it off the car and examine it minutely in the light and all around. It's a bit difficult to access on the 2.8, but not unmanageable with the air filter out and the MAF & rubber bellows removed out the way.
The purpose of the CCV as I recall was to vent pressure from the crank case. They seem to commonly split around the lower round bit which hoses the valve, and the split can be a fine hairline which isn't easily visible in the dark recesses there and if it has split on the side facing the engine block, can be particularly difficult to detect.
Schematic diagram of the CCV connection set-up
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/brown ... 007_22.gif
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Southernboy wrote:My experience of the CCV was a complete replacement.... I had a similar rough running scenario on my previous 2.8 '97 model. The plastic casing had split which allowed air to leak into the system. The split obviously made the rubber valve thingy inside redundant. Perhaps a proper inspection would be useful...ie. take it off the car and examine it minutely in the light and all around. It's a bit difficult to access on the 2.8, but not unmanageable with the air filter out and the MAF & rubber bellows removed out the way.
The purpose of the CCV as I recall was to vent pressure from the crank case. They seem to commonly split around the lower round bit which hoses the valve, and the split can be a fine hairline which isn't easily visible in the dark recesses there and if it has split on the side facing the engine block, can be particularly difficult to detect.
Schematic diagram of the CCV connection set-up
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/brown ... 007_22.gif

hi mate cheers for the reply being the outcast at the moment :D it runs sweetly until I block that blanking plug off which aims at the ccv system! its on the second ccv ! first one I bought from german Swedish then thought it might be fecked then I bought original one from bmw replaced 2 main pipes (should have changed them fecking all really)but I havnt replaced the top pipe no7 and the one to the dipstick I have cleaned that one out ! im wondering if pipe 7 is collapsing just because of the rough running when the split blanking pipe is blocked off like it should be?? a common problem apparently? so that is my next port of call(aswell as an oil change/filter etc. not sure about flushing it heard horror stories causing more problems) reason behind me thinking is the rough running when that blanking plug is blocked off!!!!? that's what I was asking on here if anyone thinks the same after looking at the schematic!
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

I have reservations about that pipe being blanked off...it should connect into the dipstick pipe so that any crankcase oil can be returned there. The actual pressure is relieved into the air intake system from what I can make out. I would seriously check the validity of the blanked off pipe. Also, the pipe which originates from the rocker cover - check the connection to that for a snug fit... Since the system works on a pressurised basis, it would seem reasonable to assume that all connections should be in good order as well as the pipes. Hope I've provided some help.
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Southernboy wrote:I have reservations about that pipe being blanked off...it should connect into the dipstick pipe so that any crankcase oil can be returned there. The actual pressure is relieved into the air intake system from what I can make out. I would seriously check the validity of the blanked off pipe. Also, the pipe which originates from the rocker cover - check the connection to that for a snug fit... Since the system works on a pressurised basis, it would seem reasonable to assume that all connections should be in good order as well as the pipes. Hope I've provided some help.
hi mate to save confusion I got off my ass and took pics the orange bit is the dipstick tube to give you some orientation!
its the little blanking plug in middle of pic took it off for the second pic its split but if you actually block that off it runs like shite
[URL=http://s1323.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1323.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

I note the difference in the two pics... But in the first pic, is there a pipe connected to that which then goes to the dipstick tube ?
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Southernboy wrote:I note the difference in the two pics... But in the first pic, is there a pipe connected to that which then goes to the dipstick tube ?
no mate no pipe it looks like a complete pipe its just the way the pic is took!!!, look between the two and you actually notice it took me a couple of takes to notice but the bmw indie went to that and took that off because it was split blanked it off which it should be it ran like its firing on 2 cyclinders engine warning light came up fault codes ! he said theres defo a problem returned it back to split pipe reset everything ran sweet as a babys ass? just wandering if anyone elses is split or has a pipe connected etc....??? that's what made me think top pipe as rest are new?fit one blank that off see what happens my only problem is if it geos mental again and I have no means of resetting
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

I'll have a look see what I can find out on the issue...I'll let you know...
BTW...What is your VIN number so I can have a look see for your particular car
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Southernboy wrote:I'll have a look see what I can find out on the issue...I'll let you know...
BTW...What is your VIN number so I can have a look see for your particular car

*WBACN12030LK15899* IS THE NO. MATE
I just don't wont to be buying another ccv again but it aims to that system somewhere ?? aslo is there something amiss maybe?

cheers
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

Cheers...I'll get back to you.
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

On the schematic drawing I provided, there is a small hose (item # 6) which is a vacuum hose. It should be connected to the underside of the intake manifold...and should be a pretty tight fit too...have you checked that it is correctly connected, and that it is in good condition?
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spanwah
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Southernboy wrote:On the schematic drawing I provided, there is a small hose (item # 6) which is a vacuum hose. It should be connected to the underside of the intake manifold...and should be a pretty tight fit too...have you checked that it is correctly connected, and that it is in good condition?
hi mate when I fitted mine the old one had a blanking plug on that so I changed it onto new one didn't see any pipe whatsoever!
I do remember asking bmw about that and it geos nowhere I told them mines blanked off! said that's ok
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

I would check that there isn't a connector under the intake manifold...all very well closing off the pipe, but if there is an open pipe under the manifold, air will be drawn in there.
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Southernboy
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Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Southernboy »

Here is a link to a 3 part Youtube video regarding the complete replacement of the CCV in an M54 motor.... Have a look at the entire 3 parts and check off that you have covered all the items discussed...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWXtiCwRH-k (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amHwxoFAl7I (Part 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7AyOmqhlBk (Part 3)


As you will see, there is quite a story to the procedure, and several places where the system can fail if there are broken / split / leaking hoses / connections.
One important item mentioned in Part one is the rubber hose which was removed from the throttle body with the small bellows "Y" offshoot...and that it is important to inspect that for any cracks / leaks etc. In other words, you may have replaced all the hoses etc on the CCV, but the fault is on one of the other rubber components attaching to the throttle or from there to the MAF etc etc...
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spanwah
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  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: doncaster

Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Southernboy wrote:I would check that there isn't a connector under the intake manifold...all very well closing off the pipe, but if there is an open pipe under the manifold, air will be drawn in there.
thanks mate already checked all these but will do so again with a toothcomb but still cant understand that pipe?
Vic-Z3
Joined: Fri 11 Jun, 2010 19:28
Posts: 915

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: Redditch
Contact:

Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by Vic-Z3 »

Hi again .............

I have just been outside in the dark with a torch and looked at exactly the part in question.
Surprize surprize mine is just as split as yours ................ :(
I can only think this is an inlet and not an outlet pipe as the rubber plug was so loose it would be blown off
with the slightest of pressure.
I will try and put a small length of pipe on it and use some tissue paper to see if it sucks or blows.
The upshot is mine is the same as yours mate and I can't tell what it may have once done or is meant to do.
I will be back ........... :)
----------------- BMW Z3 Das Beste Auto -----------------

Mein altes Auto riecht nach Nudeln, hat dieses Auto eine Wurst Geruch.
spanwah
Joined: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 14:18
Posts: 172

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: doncaster

Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

Vic-Z3 wrote:Hi again .............

I have just been outside in the dark with a torch and looked at exactly the part in question.
Surprize surprize mine is just as split as yours ................ :(
I can only think this is an inlet and not an outlet pipe as the rubber plug was so loose it would be blown off
with the slightest of pressure.
I will try and put a small length of pipe on it and use some tissue paper to see if it sucks or blows.
The upshot is mine is the same as yours mate and I can't tell what it may have once done or is meant to do.
I will be back ........... :)

thanks mate ! piece of mind for me maybe the bmw indie was wrong? :?:
spanwah
Joined: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 14:18
Posts: 172

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: doncaster

Re: anyone know what it could be?

Post by spanwah »

well its had engine flush chucked in and drained after 20 mins new oil filter /fresh oil 5/30 fully synth lets see what happens now!
oil that came out was like water :oops: top ccv pipe ordered from bmw do that tomorrow! just a gentle kick up the ass that was received from the forum :D
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