Z3M Brakes and Discs - suggestions

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Gazza
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Z3M Brakes and Discs - suggestions

Post by Gazza » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 10:19

I think it's time I changed the pads and discs on my car. I've done 30K miles on the existing and they weren't new when I got the car.

There is still some meat left on the pads and the discs aren't too bad either but the stopping power just isn't there anymore.

I don't do Track just a bit of fast road sometimes (as you do)

So, do I go wth OEM or other ?
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Ian Kelly
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Post by Ian Kelly » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 10:39

Hi Gary,

I changed my pads for yellowstuff and they are pretty good for fast road. I put goodridge braided hoses on as well, about £60 and well worth doing given the age of our cars.

The pads generate a bit less dust than standard, but not as low-dust as I had been lead to believe. They have a great bite and are really feelsome, I've got standard discs, new rears and fronts that have only done 10k. I was advised that the standard floating front discs are pretty good. I've done about 3k miles on the pads so far.

The only time they let me down was chasing my mates in their 500kg kit cars down Alpine descents. When we stopped my discs were blue, the pedal had gone a bit long, and there was a bit of smoke coming from the pads. I was 2 up and with a boot full of luggage, which didn't help.

Cheers, Ian
Last edited by Ian Kelly on Tue 02 Aug, 2011 10:42, edited 1 time in total.

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c_w
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Post by c_w » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 10:39

If the brakes are still smooth and the discs don't "look" worn then they're probably ok. So just change the pads, EBC Yellowstuff are a good change, low dust and work fine on the road.

If you're changing the discs go OEM floating but they're not cheap!!

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Post by Gazza » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 11:09

Good feedback Ian ;)

Chris, I would describe the feel as 'Long', I would even go as far as saying the braking distance is maybe 25% more.

The car has 75K miles now and I don't know if the pads/disks have ever been changed.

I'll go for the Yellowstuff first and see how it goes :)

I priced OEM disks.......wow !
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by RemarkLima » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 13:39

A long pedal probably means more likely you need to flush and bleed the brake fluid, as pad wear doesn't affect pedal travel.

Even when pads are gassing / overheated the pedal remains firm, you just have limited braking effect... However, for most the fluid will start to overheat first giving a long pedal*.

Also, I've just ched to yellowstuff's all round and although they're still bedding in, they feel good. I also have them on my 330d, and have ran them through summers, winters and a blat round the nurburgring and never had any problems at all, so was happy to do the same on the M.

* Long pedal's can also be from expansion and contraction of the discs and pads, often after a long stright on a track day (or some spirited driving) the pedal will go a lot longer first time as some of the heat has been dissapated from the pads and discs meaning the gap is bigger than normal if you follow me.

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Post by c_w » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 13:43

As above a fluid change is also probably worthwhile doing - use DOT 5.1 (Halfords own brand is fine and quite cheap compared to others). Never suffered from spongey pedal with any standard brand DOT 5.1 (but did with DOT 4 variants). Done 4 trackdays with the most recent fluid change including running some Carbone Lorraine RC6 pads - a very aggressive race pad that creates a LOT of heat, so much so that the discs cracked, but still a firm pedal (fluid still coped with it).
Ian Kelly wrote: The only time they let me down was chasing my mates in their 500kg kit cars down Alpine descents. When we stopped my discs were blue, the pedal had gone a bit long, and there was a bit of smoke coming from the pads. I was 2 up and with a boot full of luggage, which didn't help.
Cheers, Ian
I think long downhill descents can be perhaps harder on brakes than a trackday as they are often used/dragged the whole way down. Althought I have used mine very hard at trackdays they have never really faded but my car does have additional cooling hose to the back of the discs which is force-fed directly from the bumper air duct.

I think with the dust they're one of the least dusty pads you can get.

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Post by RemarkLima » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 14:03

c_w wrote:...but my car does have additional cooling hose to the back of the discs which is force-fed directly from the bumper air duct.
Ooo! I'd be interested to see this setup! I can see the duct opening on the wheel liner, and the respective duct in the back of the brake shield, but how do you route the hose to not get caught by the wheel on full lock?

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Post by c_w » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 14:13

RemarkLima wrote:
c_w wrote:...but my car does have additional cooling hose to the back of the discs which is force-fed directly from the bumper air duct.
Ooo! I'd be interested to see this setup! I can see the duct opening on the wheel liner, and the respective duct in the back of the brake shield, but how do you route the hose to not get caught by the wheel on full lock?
- If you drop the archliner down you can see the actual plastic duct inside the bumper to the archliner. Essentially tap into this by cutting a hole in it for some hosing to fit into.
- Route it around the inside of the archliner and attached it to the back of the disc backplate.
- A short metal flange can be tack-welded onto the backplate (I used a short section of exhaust pipe) and used hose clips to attach it.
- Block off the OEM archliner hole as it is useless (this means all air going into the bumper scoop is forced through the brake disc.


Few threads on it;

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthrea ... ght=hosing

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthrea ... ght=brakes

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthrea ... ght=hosing

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Gazza
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Post by Gazza » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 14:17

The car is due a fluid change :)
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"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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RemarkLima
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Post by RemarkLima » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 14:32

c_w wrote:
RemarkLima wrote:
c_w wrote:...but my car does have additional cooling hose to the back of the discs which is force-fed directly from the bumper air duct.
Ooo! I'd be interested to see this setup! I can see the duct opening on the wheel liner, and the respective duct in the back of the brake shield, but how do you route the hose to not get caught by the wheel on full lock?
- If you drop the archliner down you can see the actual plastic duct inside the bumper to the archliner. Essentially tap into this by cutting a hole in it for some hosing to fit into.
- Route it around the inside of the archliner and attached it to the back of the disc backplate.
- A short metal flange can be tack-welded onto the backplate (I used a short section of exhaust pipe) and used hose clips to attach it.
- Block off the OEM archliner hole as it is useless (this means all air going into the bumper scoop is forced through the brake disc.


Few threads on it;

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthrea ... ght=hosing

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthrea ... ght=brakes

http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthrea ... ght=hosing
Sorry to hijack this thread BTW!

But that looks good... Some of the Lotus boys used to run this kind of setup which meant they could use lower temp and therefore cheaper pads all day long, so very much tempted, like the idea of it being able to route bhind the wheel arch liner.

Anyway, back to the need for new fluid :D

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Post by Gazza » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 14:58

Mark, it's still a similar subject so blends with the original post ;)
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"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by RemarkLima » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 15:34

garythefish wrote:Mark, it's still a similar subject so blends with the original post ;)
Cheers :D

Also, if you were to duct directly to the discs then I guess it would alter your choice of pads!

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Post by velocemax » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 15:36

I have done all the brakes on the front of mine which includes :- refurbing the calipers, goodridge aeroquip hoses and EBC red stuff pads. Having talked to a BMW specialist they advised not to use Silicone race brake fluid, which I must say, rather surprised me. I have always used that in my race cars irrespective. Still, the brakes were vastly improved. As some of the chaps on this site have already said, for that extra bite, the next level up EBC pads are certainly an option before going "big disc" and "multipot" calipers.

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Post by Gazza » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 15:45

EBC Yellow ordered from Ebay Demon Tweeks

How much fluid is needed ?
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"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by velocemax » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 15:57

At least a Litre, may be a little more for the whole car ! Remember to drain all that old stuff through for a good 30 mins.

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Post by Gazza » Wed 14 Sep, 2011 12:56

Fitted the Yellow Stuff pads and changed the fluid, wow what a difference.

Not done many miles yet but the braking is soooo much better and firmer. The old pads had plenty of meat on them but were very glazed.

Road test this weekend on a trip to Somerset.
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by Jonttt » Wed 14 Sep, 2011 20:19

I was well impressed when I put the yellowstuff on, good cold performance and much much better on a run. So good in fact I lost the desire for a big brake conversion as they show that the OEM calipers and discs are more than enough for road use :wink:
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Post by Badman gee » Wed 14 Sep, 2011 20:34

Jonttt wrote:I was well impressed when I put the yellowstuff on, good cold performance and much much better on a run. So good in fact I lost the desire for a big brake conversion as they show that the OEM calipers and discs are more than enough for road use :wink:
ive got the redstuff, no dust same performance :D
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exdos
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Post by exdos » Thu 15 Sep, 2011 11:00

If you want an excellent and very cheap upgrade to your OEM brakes then fitting brake ducting is the best mod you can do. I did this mod in 2007 and it's reported in the link that c_w gave above: http://www.z3mcoupe.com/forum/showthrea ... ght=brakes
In one of my postings in that link, I wrote: "From my reading, I've seen it stated that good brake cooling is equivalent to increasing the disc diameter by 2", so if this is true, then the OEM 315mm discs cooled would be equal to 365mm discs." Now, after 4 years the hoses and fitting are still in place and in good condition and they really do greatly help in the braking department. To improve the brakes some more, Yellowstuff pads are exceptional value and little difference in price to OEM pads and improve stopping power. Likewise, DOT 5.1 brake fluid has an increased boiling point and if used in conjunction with cooling ducts will ensure that you'll not experience brake fade.

I was changing my brake fluid and generally cleaning the brakes on my MC yesterday and I was amazed at how little dust remained around the brakes, which I attribute to the constant flow of air through the cooling ducting, which must also help to prevent glazing on the discs.

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Post by Gazza » Thu 15 Sep, 2011 17:29

Hi John,

I assume you would want anyone interested to send you a PM for a link to the pics of the duct ?
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by exdos » Thu 15 Sep, 2011 18:26

Here are a few photos for you:
This is one of the pieces that fits onto brake shield. These are "handed" left and right and the bit with the pipe fits directly over the kidney shaped hole in the OEM brake shield. The "C" shape in my piece fits behind a bolt on the brake and the part is firmly attached to the front damper with stout cable ties. I made these parts from pieces of aluminium I had lying around and used a MIG welder to tack them together. I'd have done a better cosmetic job if I'd had access to a TIG rig, but they've survived for 4 years now and do a job which is out of sight except for photographs!

Image

This photo shows the part attached.

Image

This shows the forward facing inlet into the brake ducting which is attached to the front ARB. The air passes into this inlet directly from the undertray beneath the engine.

I didn't want to use the OEM brake ducts because I use them solely for the air-intake and have them nearly blocked off which increases pressure in the OEM air-intake and I don't want to lose air to the brakes when I can source it this way.

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